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Sub-frame Audio editing – FCP X vs Premiere
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I’m not sure of the accuracy or origin of the term subframe, but it predates digital audio editing. I think it goes back to at least the Adams-Smith audio controllers in the 80s. There it related to actual subframes dividing a frame of timecode. The audio decks themselves were usually analog. Of course Media Composer has permitted 1/4 frame accuracy slipping in film projects, since that was the accuracy of 1 perf in a 35mm frame (4 perfs per frame).
I’m not in front of X right now, but can you actually zoom in to the sample level? I don’t think you can. You might be able to edit at that precision, but you can’t actually see the waveform at that precision. You can in Premiere Pro. In addition, if you make a subframe audio edit in X, you cannot make an adjacent edit until you are at least 1 frame later. In Premiere, you can make two subframe audio edits very close together to each other.
Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
[Oliver Peters] “In Premiere, you can make two subframe audio edits very close together to each other.”
In Premiere, you can edit audio at the sample level, i.e. you can make one sample audio edits.
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David Lawrence
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Excellent addition Oliver. It just goes to show that our NLEs have deep foundations that are not always as they can appear at first glance, even for old pros. And, after really looking carefully, it’s easy to see why this is so easily misconstrued.
And, now that we’ve all collaborated to straighten this all out, I would have to say in summary that, currently Adobe’s implementation is in fact the better and more accurate approach to sub-frame audio editing that better emulates the sub-frame editing capabilities of a DAW. This doesn’t mean that FCP X us for amateurs, or that editors using X can’t produce excellent work, including audio editing and mixing inside FCP X, only that in a fair comparison of both apps, at this point Adobe has the more advanced implementation of audio editing. To be fair, it’s also more expensive… But, also to be fair, with that added expense, the user also gets access to an even better audio editor (Audition), and the entire suite of additional apps as well.
David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist & Workflow Consultant
David Weiss Productions
Los AngelesDavid is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.
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[David Lawrence] ”
In Premiere, you can edit audio at the sample level, i.e. you can make one sample audio edits.
“You won’t hear those 1 sample edits, but it’s very cool to know that the capability is there to edit at the highest level of granularity right on the timeline.
No matter how you slice it, in any objective appraisal, this implementation is pretty much what you’d find on any editor’s wishlist. In my opinion, it’s the correct way to implement sub-frame audio editing.
David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist & Workflow Consultant
David Weiss Productions
Los AngelesDavid is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.
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Unfortunately, subframe audio edits in an NLE don’t always translate correctly to DAWs and vice versa. So I would suggest they should be avoided unless you plan to finish your audio editing and mix entirely within the NLE. However, the Premiere to Audition direct link might do it correctly. Not sure on that.
Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
[Oliver Peters] “Unfortunately, subframe audio edits in an NLE don’t always translate correctly to DAWs and vice versa. So I would suggest they should be avoided unless you plan to finish your audio editing and mix entirely within the NLE. However, the Premiere to Audition direct link might do it correctly. Not sure on that.”
I haven’t had any problems or heard any complaints from my sound guy about the AAFs I send him out of Premiere for ProTools.
For me, the biggest issue is that when you select “Show Audio Time Units”, Premiere lets you edit at the sample level on the video track as well as the audio track. This is problematic because a sub-frame video edit is meaningless. Nevertheless, the UI lets you do this and it can lead to unpredictable results in what you see vs what actually plays in the video track. I want to be careful when I use sample-level audio edits so I actually appreciate that I have to switch modes because it forces me to think about what I’m doing with audio in relation to video.
[David Roth Weiss] “You won’t hear those 1 sample edits, but it’s very cool to know that the capability is there to edit at the highest level of granularity right on the timeline. “
It’s very cool. To be honest, my most common use of this feature is for syncing second source audio. The tools everyone uses (PluralEyes, or Premiere built-in sync) are okay, but they tend to be within a frame of accuracy. My standard practice is to zoom in and sync down to the sample. And yeah, it does make a difference.
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Editing at zero-crossing points is the only way to achieve a perfect audio edit. While editing audio at the frame level can be fudged in many cases by adding cross dissolves, that’s not granular enough for all audio edits, especially when editing music and audio with quiet passages.
David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist & Workflow Consultant
David Weiss Productions
Los AngelesDavid is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.
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[David Roth Weiss] “Editing at zero-crossing points is the only way to achieve a perfect audio edit. While editing audio at the frame level can be fudged in many cases by adding cross dissolves, that’s not granular enough for all audio edits, especially when editing music and audio with quiet passages.”
Especially true when editing dialogue at the level Michael describes above:
[Michael Gissing] “I can attest to the common occurrence of slicing audio down to the sample in post sound. It can be the difference when either cutting the ‘s’ off the end of a word to remove a plural or slicing off an ‘s’ and adding it to another word to make the plural. It sometimes matters to have the ability to trim a clip both top and tail to sample accuracy and then place it with sample accuracy to make it work.”
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David Lawrence
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[David Lawrence] “I haven’t had any problems or heard any complaints from my sound guy about the AAFs I send him out of Premiere for ProTools.”
So far I’ve only sent Premiere Pro sound to Logic Pro X and not Pro Tools. That was a disaster using either Premiere or Audition. I ended up doing the dialogue clean-up in Premiere and sent the mixer a baked track to embellish and add music.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
[Oliver Peters] “So far I’ve only sent Premiere Pro sound to Logic Pro X and not Pro Tools. That was a disaster using either Premiere or Audition. I ended up doing the dialogue clean-up in Premiere and sent the mixer a baked track to embellish and add music.”
AAF in Premiere was badly broken before the 2015 release. If you were using an earlier version try again. Good chance you’ll be pleasantly surprised.
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David Lawrence
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