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Splitting multi-channel audio into discrete left and right tracks?
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I don’t know why I keep trying to help.
Nevermind.
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[Jeremy Garchow] “I don’t know why I keep trying to help.”
Considering that nothing you offered helped me, I don’t know why, either. But thanks anyway.
Canon XF-300, Canon 5DMkIII, Canon 7D MkII, Avid Media Composer 7.05, Adobe CC 2015, FCP X.
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Hi Phil. I’ve done lots of news and feature-type editing on deadline, so I’m going to jump into the fray here.
The short answer, in my experience, is, “No. You can’t replicate the Avid-style alternating l/r audio track layout in FCPX.”
I have a couple of workflow questions.
1) Are you required to layoff to tape, and thus require the VO-1, SOT & nats-2 format?
2) Is playback for broadcast still based on the 2 discrete channels from tape and being mono’d at the audio board?I know news has very specialized procedures, and audio in X isn’t really designed with this process in mind.
A couple of thoughts regarding this kind of editing (probably similar to yours, as you’ve clearly been doing this for a long time):
I would certainly cut VO and SOT in the primary (a radio cut, if you will). I find that trimming and re-ordering clips is really fast this way. Drop in the VO, pull out the unwanted stuff by marking in and out on the fly and deleting, and the pull-ups will happen without even stopping the playhead. Now each VO is its own clip, and the SOTs can be dropped in at each edit point really quickly. Trimming in the primary is really fast (ripple editing by default, but with the ability to add a slug to improve timing, etc.).
As far as overlapping audio and video: expanding the audio and video (control-s) and the audio components (control-option-s) makes L and J cuts very fast. No need to detach audio or to place audio as connected clips. I would do b-roll and additional nat sound as connected clips. (Sometimes it’s necessary to change the connection point of the first or last connected b-roll if you’re going to move a chunk of the story around.) Sometimes adding a dissolve on a split edit requires a little fiddling, but you can always detach just that one bit of audio.
Regarding the lav-1, boom-2 source issue: I don’t think there’s any way around the lack of alternating l/r issue. Though it has been my experience that cutting everything in as dual mono and turning off the unwanted channel of each clip in the timeline via the inspector is pretty quick. I’m not sure what problem you’re having with skimming multiple clips while the inspector is open.
So…if I cut the clip into the timeline as dual mono, then expand audio on all the clips, I can turn off the boom or the lav as necessary on each clip or group of clips. I can then make those same clips “stereo l/r” in the pan mode, and pan full left or right. Since the only clips I need left (ch. 1) are VO, that’s a simple lasso & change operation. Every other clip is right (ch. 2), using the same lasso & change step. I would do this just before output or layoff, so that I’m monitoring my mix while editing in mono.
Would be interested in your feedback.
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[Jeff Markgraf] “1) Are you required to layoff to tape, and thus require the VO-1, SOT & nats-2 format?
2) Is playback for broadcast still based on the 2 discrete channels from tape and being mono’d at the audio board?”Not tape. It’s a file-based workflow that archives directly (and automatically) from the playback server, so anything edited for playback on air must be edited for archiving and possible reuse with clean nats later. So, for all practical purposes, it may as well be a tape-based workflow.
Regarding 2 above, yes the mono mix happens at the board in PC. As you correctly noted, the demands of news for clean, reusable file whenever possible dictate this workflow. It was like this at my former station. It’s like this at my current station.
[Jeff Markgraf] “As far as overlapping audio and video: expanding the audio and video (control-s) and the audio components (control-option-s) makes L and J cuts very fast.”
My big issue with making this type of cut with audio only and video + audio on the primary is that I was unable to trim the b-side video over the a-side narration. All I wanted to do was back time sound and video over the narration.
Using trim opens a gap between the b and a side audio. Using position overwrites the a side audio. It appears this is because an audio track (green clip) is treated as though it also has a video component, even though it’s empty.
It seems the only way around this is to put only one of these elements on the primary and connect the other, allowing me to use the position tool to extend the b-side clip over the a-side narration. All I did then was use the range tool to select the overlapping audio on the b-side, and drag the audio levels “under” the a-side.
In my original finished edit, I had lifted the narration from the primary. In the screen cap above, I lifted the b-side clip from the primary. The result was the same.
The reason I put all the cleaned-up narration on a secondary, is because when editing under deadline – as you know – sometimes back timing and fore timing clips over track is the fastest way to get those tracks covered, and if you have time at the end of the edit, you can go back and change some of those shots. It makes sense to me to keep the narration (VO) off the primary so that dealing with it later doesn’t become an issue. Once a script is approved and a reporter and I start editing, there’s not a lot of changing the order of elements around. Sometimes you might add a bit of nats for effect, but I don’t find a lot of value in using connected clips just to drag stuff around. There simply isn’t time to screw with that kind of stuff regardless of the NLE one is using.
[Jeff Markgraf] “Regarding the lav-1, boom-2 source issue: I don’t think there’s any way around the lack of alternating l/r issue. “
Yes, I know. It sucks. 🙁
[Jeff Markgraf] “So…if I cut the clip into the timeline as dual mono, then expand audio on all the clips, I can turn off the boom or the lav as necessary on each clip or group of clips. I can then make those same clips “stereo l/r” in the pan mode, and pan full left or right. Since the only clips I need left (ch. 1) are VO, that’s a simple lasso & change operation. Every other clip is right (ch. 2), using the same lasso & change step. I would do this just before output or layoff, so that I’m monitoring my mix while editing in mono.”
I have always dealt with audio issues immediately after laying down each clip. I’ve been burned and have seen colleagues burned by putting these decisions off to the end of the edit. Invariably, some people don’t build time into their edit to address these issues at deadline, and pieces go to air with bad mixes or unrendered effects, as they spend that time making the piece “pretty.” As much as I like making pieces look good, I know I have to get the basics done first, and that includes tweaking audio while it’s fresh on my mind. This was especially important when I was cutting long-form investigative pieces and half-hour shows.
As far as monitoring the mix goes, as I wrote in an earlier post, my old station had precision 2-channel amps with click-stop pots, and the internal boards were calibrated to our standard -14dB reference. Turning each pot to the right (or left) the same number of clicks meant I was monitoring both channels at the same level without having to monitor in mono. I would then simply watch my meters and listen to the mix, adjusting higher freq nats lower and lower freq nats higher as needed. (Higher freq sounds need less power to penetrate a mix. It’s why there’s always only one piccolo in a band or orchestra.)
I am currently in the process of re-editing that practice package given the workflow Bret (and now you) have mentioned, but I’m really not digging leaving the narration on the primary, for the reasons I stated above.
Above all, I really don’t like FCPX, in case you couldn’t tell. 😉
Thank you for your feedback.
Canon XF-300, Canon 5DMkIII, Canon 7D MkII, Avid Media Composer 7.05, Adobe CC 2015, iMovie Pro.
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Hi Phil.
Yes, your unhappiness with X is quite apparent. 😉 You aren’t alone. Although, I must say, it has become by far my favorite editing system (right up there with the long ago, late, lamented Immix VideoCube!)
A couple of points, if I may:
[Phil Lowe] ” I was unable to trim the b-side video over the a-side narration.”
The trick here is to expand the AV on the clips and then do a “double roller” trim on the video. Or trim just the outgoing “video” part of the VO and pull the B side picture with audio along. Even though the “DIVA DRIVE” audio clip is audio only it still acts like an A/V clip in the primary. So if you expand both clips, you can edit the “video” part of each clip.
Regarding VO in the primary, or not: I often put it all in the primary to do the basic assembly, then lift elements from the primary to start tweaking. Lifting the clip (option-command-up arrow, I think) leaves a gap clip on the primary with the lifted clip connected to it. Now you can adjust the connected clip to your heart’s content, and just expand or shorten the gaps underneath.
When I first started cutting with X, (promos) I cut with everything as connected clips over one long gap clip. It worked fine. Felt a lot like using Avid or FCP7. But it really didn’t take advantage of the speed X has to offer once you’re in the groove. So I’d really recommend the drop-it-in-the-primary, then lift-clips-out-of-the-primary method as a bridge between the two techniques. Until you’re more comfortable with trimming the expanded audio technique.
[Phil Lowe] “I have always dealt with audio issues immediately after laying down each clip.”
I usually do the audio stuff as I go along. It takes a few keystrokes to accomplish, but it’s nothing compared to how long we had to wait to shuttle and cue tapes to find b-roll or next SOT.
I prefer to listen as I’m editing in mono, since that’s how it will be presented. I find listening to split audio distracting, and harder to get the levels right. That’s why I generally wait until the end to pan the audio. But if you can mono your monitors, then you could just as easily do the audio panning as you go. Different strokes, etc.
In the long run, the station you’re working for really should begin to rethink their approach to cutting and archiving. Using roles properly would allow stories to be output and archived with true audio stems (VO, SOT, nat sound and music and effects all as separate tracks on a multi-track Quicktime (or other) file). Much more flexible in the long run. After all, having only VO as a separate track was always a compromise forced by 2-track tape machines. A more modern approach could really make things go faster and make archiving more useful. IMHO.
Happy to go into more detail here or off board, complete with pictures, if you wish.
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Here’s the recut using connected clips. Having cut this piece twice now two different ways, I still don’t see the advantage of connected clips for a deadline driven straight news pkg. And I really don’t like the narration sitting on the primary. Putting it underneath on a secondary feels a little more like track-based editing. And I’m fine with that. 😉
I think this timeline looks better (more organized) and – more importantly – plays out just as well.
Canon XF-300, Canon 5DMkIII, Canon 7D MkII, Avid Media Composer 7.05, Adobe CC 2015, iMovie Pro.
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Here’s an article about cutting news in fcpx. It’s pretty old now… looks like it was written before 10.1 and fcp has come a long way since then. So ignore all the stuff about using event manager X. The article shows how the editor cuts news and uses roles for narration vo and for nat-sot. Hope it helps.
https://library.creativecow.net/garber_michael/FCPX-News-Editing/1As for monitoring your audio channels separately, open the timeline index and switch to the roles tab. You can mute either the vo or the nat-sot/intvw during playback. No need for hard panning if you set up the roles in the browser/inspector before you edit clips into he timeline.
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[James Cude] “No need for hard panning if you set up the roles in the browser/inspector before you edit clips into he timeline.”
Assuming I were to use roles (which I am not inclined to do), how exactly do you set up a role so one track is panned fully left and the other fully right?
Because here’s the thing…I can rename tracks in Avid to do part of what roles do which is to describe what media sits on a track. But it’s completely unnecessary.
Why is using roles the preferred workflow for an 80 second news package that needs to hit the server in 30 minutes? In the Garber article he states up front that he had two days for that edit. I’m not convinced that roles are the right fit for small packages, and certainly not for 40 second voice-overs and SOTs.
Canon XF-300, Canon 5DMkIII, Canon 7D MkII, Avid Media Composer 7.05, Adobe CC 2015, iMovie Pro.
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You don’t.
If you need a stereo output, you pan the clips left and right, and export a stereo movie.
If you need discreet channels, you export a dual mono movie.
Looks like this:
If you reimport that clip. Channel 1 would be Narr, 2 would be SOT.
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Overlaps (or split edits, which I linked to the manual earlier, did you take the time to read?) look like this:
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