-
P2 HD 2/3″ CCD camera
-
[Simon Wyndham] “And Thomsons are used by which networks?”
As you propably know, Thomson was formerly Philips and I’ve seen those cameras in quite a few tv shows…
-
[Simon Wyndham] “I’m sorry if I came across in a condescending way. I am so used to people on these forums making comparisons of high end cameras that they will never be able to to use or buy that I got a bit fed up of the way these cameras were being talked about.”
So, then you are basically saying that you are out slumming, eh, Simon?
[Simon Wyndham] “Regarding P2, I still do not see its flexibility, even in the future.”
So, then why on Earth would you want to hang out here in the first place, Simon??? Just curious…
[Simon Wyndham] “I just do not like the idea of having to have even more equipment and hard drives to have to offload P2 footage onto during a production.”
Yes, as my dear old Dad used to say, “If I had grown breasts and had different plumbing then you could have called me ‘Mom,’ but I couldn’t do that and so please call me ‘Dad.'” Good grief! Why is it that some people will beat a dead horse right into the ground with all this ponderous pontificating on things that are nothing more than wasting time since they really want something else altogether…
[Simon Wyndham] “Currently, thought this may change in the future, a few more advantages of XD over P2 at the current time are…” <snip>
Well, the most obvious one to me would be price, Simon. ;o)
I’d hope that a camera that costs many times as much, would do a hell of a lot of things that a lesser priced camera couldn’t claim to do.
Sorry to be so hard on you, Simon, but I really find all of this ranting by people whose minds are closed to be tiresome, banal and oh so boring…
Best regards,
Ron Lindeboom
(whose wallet wishes it could be called “Bill Gate’s own” but alas, it is mine and so it is called “sometimes empty”) -
Well, with yours stunt show, what you do when XDCAM disc run out of its capacity? You have to stop filming and change disc. Same as with good old tape. With P2 you can keep filming presumably you have spare P2 cards. If you or production have an assistant, he or she can download data to portable storage while you still keep filming and not missing part of the action. In HD it takes 1 min per 1GB of data to download. Then you can re-use same card and still continue filming and not missing part of action. As cameras becoming more and more software driven, there will be always differences between brands and as you know software can be always upgraded. I do not think anybody will be 100% winner. It’s like NLE reality this days. To come to Thomson Infinity, there is choice of disc or compact flash memory to record on, so you have both of the sides covered and not to mention quality of the camera, but you have to still stop recording to reload media.
-
“So, then you are basically saying that you are out slumming, eh, Simon?”
Eh?
“So, then why on Earth would you want to hang out here in the first place, Simon??? Just curious…”
Ron, you have just accused me of having a closed mind. A closed minded person doesn’t hang out in forums as I do to get information on other systems. Hence the reason I also hang out here.
Beating a dead horse? Really? I’ve had this trouble before. I make points based on my experience with the systems and point out the factual advantages and disadvantages of both. Yet for some reason P2 has a following which just will not accept any mention of any drawbacks. It is utterly ridiculous. I will also say that many times I have also gone into the advantages of P2 as well. Being the main mod around here Ron you should well know that.
“I’d hope that a camera that costs many times as much, would do a hell of a lot of things that a lesser priced camera couldn’t claim to do.”
Thats a ridiculous statement. P2 does not = HVX200. P2 as a system even on the high end shoulder mount versions has the same clip organisational drawbacks. I am drawing a comparison between current XDCAM and current P2. What I was NOT doing however was making a comparison between a $20k camera and a $6k one.
I wrote out the drawbacks in a methodical manner, apologised to the last poster, and this is the kind of response I get from you Ron?
-
Well, with yours stunt show, what you do when XDCAM disc run out of its capacity? You have to stop filming and change disc. Same as with good old tape. With P2 you can keep filming presumably you have spare P2 cards. If you or production have an assistant, he or she can download data to portable storage while you still keep filming and not missing part of the action. In HD it takes 1 min per 1GB of data to download. Then you can re-use same card and still continue filming and not missing part of action. As cameras becoming more and more software driven, there will be always differences between brands and as you know software can be always upgraded. I do not think anybody will be 100% winner. It’s like NLE reality this days. To come to Thomson Infinity, there is choice of disc or compact flash memory to record on, so you have both of the sides covered and not to mention quality of the camera, but you have to still stop recording to reload media.
===
No Ivan, you have missed my point. When the XDCAM disc runs out of course I have to replace it. But my point is that I can afford many XDCAM discs to take with me. Further instead of having to offload the footage or rotate P2 cards, I have all my original footage on the discs with no need to take extra hard drives etc with me. You will note that on that particular assignment I was a solo cameraman with no assistant, so your anaolgy of getting someone to offload the footage from a P2 card for me does not apply.
Over on the B-Roll forums there are people there working for networks using P2. Even their companies are having to limit the number of P2 cards they have due to cost. There are advantages and disadvantages to both systems. I’m just coming at it from the perspective of someone who uses one of them every day. One can take my opinion or viewpoint as what may. The only thing I ask is that you don’t do a ‘Ron’.
-
Simon,
An open mind? I think that went out the window with: “Regarding P2, I still do not see its flexibility, even in the future.”
I have seen many people here in this forum discussing their various versions of drawbacks for them when looking at the P2 system. They have been discussed from so many different points of view — but when people can’t get everyone else to agree with their “version” of the drawbacks, then they accuse “everyone” of not listening and not being able to discuss issues “realistically.”
I have seen you make many great posts, Simon, and add a lot to the discussion. My point was that this thread was — well, let’s just say that in my opinion, at least, it was not one of your shining moments.
My real point in all this, Simon, is why do people who are clearly not really interested in this camera — except to deride it and malign those who are considering it — hang out here and spend time dissing it?
As I have said to Jiri and others here: If you don’t like it, fine, there’s something out there that you do like, move on.
Best regards,
Ron Lindeboom
-
Ron, if you read my first message in this thread you will see that it was because someone brought up the subject of the new HD XDCAM. Once that was in the subject, as someone who uses XD all the time, I can inject my opinion on how the two ‘systems’ (not cameras) compare.
Regardless of my comment I still have an open mind about P2. I made that comment about its flexibility because I truthfully do not think it has as much flexibility as XD. It *does* have much faster access times. But its clip organisation, along with storage space drawbacks and having to rely on hard drive backup on location means that it just isn’t as matured as XDCAM in terms of its feature set.
Now as for not having any interest in purchasing P2 technology, you couldn’t be more wrong. I am keeping a very close eye on developments because I realise that technology changes, is made better, and matures. As a matter of fact I am keeping an eye out on the HVX200 precisely because it MIGHT fit some of my needs and hence I MIGHT be in the market to purchase one. But that depends on a number of factors.
Jan reads these forums a lot, and I feel that as someone who uses P2’s rival system, as well as being someone who might at some point want to buy an HVX, that there is no harm in methodically pointing out the drawbacks of the P2 system in comparison. Having used XDCAM a lot I know what kinds of features are very useful in a non linear camera. Thus far Sony have made multiple updates to the XDCAM firmware adding new features all the time to existing hardware. There doesn’t appear to have been the same sort of support in that regard for P2.
-
Hi Simon,
I do read these forums a lot and frankly I have been sitting on the fence as to whether to say something in this thread as frankly your posting about P2 and its flexibility comes from a very limited space, someone else’s newly tried out system where they were just getting a feel for what to do and how to manage the data. You took that information and decided that that was fact and that it is a major drawback to the P2 system. No, it really is a bit of growing pains.
Your posts seem to be very much along the lines of XDCAM is better than P2 and yet your hands on experience is very limited indeed. However if I point out that one of our larger and most recent sales at Griffen Communications who was about to place an order for XDCAM and basically gave us a polite 1/2 hour hearing, emerged indo a full blown look under the hood, see how it works and then make that decision; they bought P2. So if it has so many problems how is it that we are able to make this kind of a sale? Point is many people post their frustrations, it doens’t necessarily mean that the system is flawed, it only means that the person has not figured out how to deal with it.
To underscore that point, let’s look at all of the posts on how to do 24P capture off of the DVX100. If we take the first posts and the agonizing that goes on until they finally work it out, we would say that the system is flawed and doesn’t work too well. We know this isn’t true, but that would be the assumption, especially when the 2:3:3:2 was first introduced some 2 1/2 years ago. A forum is not a fact sheet, it is a place for an exchange of ideas, and looking for help. In the case of P2, many of the broadcasters that have happily adopted and are working with it, do not hang out here. Too bad, they may have helped.
Hey, I don’t even respond to every post and frankly there are many days where there are just too many and I am not able to read them all. I get about 250 panasonic relevant emails a day, about 50 from the Cow. There is not enough time to deal with it all.
So I am glad to hear that you may entertain the purchase of the HVX, but frankly from the tone of your posts up to that, it definitely sounded the way that Ron and I have interpreted it. Like why are you here? This is not the forum for chest-beating the XDCAM format and workflow.
Anyhow, perhaps that sheds some light on the reaction that you are receiving.
Best,
Jan
Jan Crittenden Livingston
Product Manager, DVCPRO, DVCPRO50, AG-DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems -
Hey Jan, it wasn’t me who introduced XDCAM into this discussion. As you will see from the very top of this thread it was the mention of HD XDCAM that brought me into it. You might like to look on things as being XDCAM chest beating. Hey, its the system I use a lot. I looked into P2. If you can tell me where all the clip organisation abilities are in camera, or even with the P2 free downloadable software it would be nice if you pointed it out. Because a) the manuals for P2 hardware certainly make no mention of such abilities, and b) you aren’t exactly endearing me to the HVX by practically making out I’m some kind of Sony henchman.
Being part of Panasonic your wages come from my pocket. This kind of hardware is not cheap, and if someone is asking about the various capabilities I will point them out as I see them. Being one of the product managers for a new piece of P2 hardware if I am wrong then please correct me. I don’t want to know about your sales to another company. Sony could probably tell you of a few that were looking into P2 but bought XD instead.
No, what I’m interested in is the facts. You have accused me of having limited experience. From what do you base these comments on? I certainly didn’t plonk down nearly 25k UKP on hardware without looking into all the options!
As I said, I might be in the market for an HVX200 depending on how the situation is at the time. So instead of painting me as some kind of person on a mission, which I most certainly am not having posted about the advantages and disadvantages of BOTH systems on many different forums, you would be better served to put me straight with facts. Not sales figures, but actual facts about how the system works.
1) Does P2 have on camera clip organisation and naming?
2) With regards to different types of projects what is your honest appraisal of both systems for different tasks?
3) Has Pansonic done any software upgrades to current P2 cameras that increase or add to their feature set?I did try to tackle the points Ron made in a constructive way. However I cannot help but get my back up at comments such as your Jan. Especially when you are supposed to be selling me on your syste, not putting me off it!
-
[jiri vrozina] “In six months you will change your mind.”
Jiri, point is I haven’t made UP my mind yet as the Infinity system doesn’t yet exist – it sounds great and if it delivers what it promises, it will be a revolution.
Steve Connor
Cardinal HD
Reply to this Discussion! Login or Sign Up