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OT but part of the debate I think
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ok
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[Jeremy Garchow] “I know I have posted this before, but this video tickles me:”
I love the pie chart! The “one episode of House” chart segment is priceless. If I had a dollar for every time some wannabe with a 5D mentioned that to up their cred, I could go out and by an Alexa.
Scott Sheriff
Director
https://www.sstdigitalmedia.com“If you think it’s expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur.” —Red Adair
Where were you on 6/21?
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Excellent riposte, Marvin.
The old fallback “you’re just a dummy” argument.
Nice use of reason, that.
“Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions.”-Justice O’Connor
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[Jeremy Garchow] “There is nothing to learn from here.”
Sure there is … human nature.
Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
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nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf -
[Herb Sevush] “Sure there is … human nature.”
It’s so wonderful
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[Jeremy Garchow] “It’s so wonderful”
It’s so interesting.
“The proper study of Mankind is Man.” A.Pope
Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
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nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf -
[Walter Soyka] “So you think creativity cannot be learned? Again, I must disagree. Creativity is a process which can be studied; it’s an activity which can be practiced; it’s a skill which can be improved. “
Wow, really?! Talent, as in pure bread, just born with it crazy good the first time, tyoe of talent is completely ridiculous to you? And the only way to really make great work, is to study 10 years in films school, work under some 60 year old pro for another 10 years, and start from the bottoom and move slowly up..only then could you be given the credit to be “capable” of doing something great?! I cannot believe I am seeing this staement from a Cow writer. Have you people really have lost all respect for ART, just to protect your slowly disappearing turf?!
Here’s the hard facts.
Many people can get the best equipment, best crew, best grading tools, huge budgets..but if the director has NO TALENT, his movie will be CRAP. That is proven several times every single year from all the crap that comes out of Hollywood. CRAP..as in that ridicolously bad Mobius movie by Laforet for the C300 demo. Technically well made YES, but overall value is poop nonetheless. And a lot of times…low budget, meager equipped indie dudes really make something great.
You can argue all you want that only 4 decades of hard work and experience is the ONLY way to do great stuff but the proof is in the pudding. I see american TV everyday, I see hollywood movies every week. And those are old well equipped, hard working “pros” but 98% of the things I see is still CRAP. Because talent, can and will never be learned. When you have it..you just have it. If you dont, no amount of money or training can cover it for you.
Quobetah
New=Better -
I think this whole repetitive argument boils down to this: success in your craft is a balance of your innate, god-given (let’s not start an argument on this, please) talent, balanced with your knowledge of the processes and technologies used.
A writer won’t get very far if he doesn’t know how to use a typewriter, a pad and pencil, or a word-processor. No amount of talent will overcome a lack of technical knowledge. If this writer learns one of the three processes, and has great talent, he will likely succeed. But there’s also no guarantee of that, either. Where does he live? If he’s in New York, or LA, his odds are greatly increased. If he’s in Calais, Maine, his odds are greatly reduced.
That said, there will obviously be some very talented people who go no where in the field they love, and there will be hacks who make it to the top. I know some very talented editors, technical directors, and others who should still be in the industry, who are now real estate brokers, investment counselors, you name it. In addition to the talent and technical knowledge, you have to know how to turn a dollar with it.
My feeling is that every piece of software out there should have a label on the side that says “Talent Not Included”. That said, I also realize that technical knowledge does, and should, play a major role in how far you can get once you look beyond the elusive “talent”.
Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com -
“[Walter Soyka] “So you think creativity cannot be learned? Again, I must disagree. Creativity is a process which can be studied; it’s an activity which can be practiced; it’s a skill which can be improved.”
[Gerald Baria] “Wow, really?! Talent, as in pure bread, just born with it crazy good the first time, tyoe of talent is completely ridiculous to you? And the only way to really make great work, is to study 10 years in films school, work under some 60 year old pro for another 10 years, and start from the bottoom and move slowly up..only then could you be given the credit to be “capable” of doing something great?! I cannot believe I am seeing this staement from a Cow writer.”
Why should you believe it? I said nothing of the sort. I said that creativity can be learned, and through practice, can be improved. You made up the junk about film school, decades of experience, and only one path to success, then falsely attributed it to me.
Also, nowhere in this thread have I denied the existence of innate ability.
Here’s what I’ve been getting at with my line of discussion: talent (innate ability) is neither necessary nor sufficient for success, and talent doesn’t matter nearly as much to success as hard work does.
If you’re not interested in any of the references I provided earlier in the thread, I’ll refer you to Aesop. The hare was a talented runner; the tortoise was a hard worker. The tortoise won. In my mind, the moral of the story is not “slow and steady wins the race.” I think the moral is “there is no substitute for hard work.”
You’ll note that if the hare had seen any value in hard work, he could have easily won the race. Don’t ever make the hare’s mistake of relying only on your talent. If you do, you’ll lose.
[Gerald Baria] “Have you people really have lost all respect for ART, just to protect your slowly disappearing turf?!”
Gerald, I believe your idea that talent matters more in art (with a capital A) than hard work does is an insult to actual artists everywhere who push themselves every single day to do better work.
If talent (innate ability) were all that mattered, you’d never see artists grow. They’d be just as good when they were born as they were the day they died. This is demonstrably false, so clearly there’s something more than just inborn talent to this.
Immature artists hold up Talent, or worse, Creativity, as some unique, you’ve-either-got-it-or-you-don’t natural attribute which separates them from mere mortals. A quick glance through any freshman-level art class’s sketchbooks will show you that talent is a simple inborn head start on otherwise learnable skills. A cursory read through any research into creativity will show that creativity is a process that’s fundamental to human cognition, which we are all capable of, and without which we couldn’t solve problems.
Finally, I want to touch on this “you people” and “your slowly disappearing turf” thing and its ridiculous adversarial tone.
First of all, I doubt I’m that much older than you. Secondly, I believe the market is expanding, not contracting. (This is one of the benefits of healthy competition.) Thirdly, you falsely assume that none of the established industry players have as much talent as newcomers do. Fourthly, you falsely assume that established industry players don’t see any value in continuing to learn. Finally, you falsely assume that established industry workflows have no value, and are maintained through fear or reticence, not merit.
Every time someone points out the value of experience or hard work — and please note that while they often go hand-in-hand, they are not the same thing — someone else who values neither (possibly because he lacks experience and has not yet put in the hard work) suggests the motivation for this is fear.
It is not fear.
In fact, it’s fearless.
Posts such as the blog post that started this thread come from a sincere desire to share experience in order to help other people — even possible competitors — working in the industry.
The “you people” that you’re railing against collectively have tens of thousands of posts here on the COW, helping complete strangers on the Internet with their production problems, freely giving away knowledge acquired through years of experience and hard work.
Speaking for myself, I contribute here to help others grow, because CreativeCOW has helped me to grow and continues to help me to grow. I can’t pay it backwards, but I can pay it forwards by actively working to make the community better and to advance the state of the art.
What are you doing? Climbing up on the shoulders of those who have come before you, then looking down and spitting?
If you can’t pay it backwards, pay it forwards.
Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events -
I’m sure most of the people on here have plenty of work.
You see, the reality is that clients tend to just go with the people they feel comfortable with and have worked with for years.
I often try to push work to young and new folks I think have potential. The clients just shrug and go with another person that they have worked with for the last 20 years. Not wanting to take a chance that something may go wrong.
I went through it myself as a young up and comer. “Just give me a chance : (
Finally the did : )
If someone is totally independent and does their own film that won’t effect someone else getting hired on a different project.
I was working on a music video and a young guy came up to me with this dinky little camera and asked me a million questions about lighting and such.
I had a track dolly and a decent budget.
He said “I do videos for people who can’t afford you”
I thought good for him. Maybe one day when I’m over booked I can push something to him.
Maybe they will give him a chance : )
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