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OT but part of the debate I think
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Gerald, you got big stones, babe. Why don’t you point us to some of your work so we can see some of that sprung from the head of Gerald brilliance?
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[Thomas Frank] “True you can investigate it [creativity? talent?] but you can’t acquire it. Well maybe with the red pill.”
Thomas, I have never met anyone in my life with literally zero creativity or talent.
I have met many who have neither the inclination nor the drive to develop it.
I have also met many who don’t even believe such a thing could be done.
Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events -
https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/20157
The nice thing about you Gerald is that you seem to be exactly the person Mike Jones was writing about in the blog that started this thread.
Would all you multi-hyphenate, DSLR shooting, one-man-band, editor / director / screenwriter / colour-grader / filmmakers, with your ultra-shallow depth-of-field, Vimeo hosted music-video showreels – who have never actually had a paid professional gig in your life – please, for the love of God, (censored)…!
Please Stop blogging, please Stop tweeting, please Stop dispensing advice or setting up websites with your ‘pro’ techniques and commentary, please Stop propagating fallacy and ignorance, please Stop offering your opinions on what is or isn’t Cinematic, Please Stop signing your signature with a litany of job titles just because you own a fist-full of software plug-ins and a Mac. Please Stop Pretending…
Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
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nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf -
[Walter Soyka] “talent (innate ability) is neither necessary nor sufficient for success, and talent doesn’t matter nearly as much to success as hard work does.”
See this is my problem, and the one I’m disagreeing on..especially those words in bold. Not suffiecient for sucess, yes..but “not nescessary” now that is just appaling. Does that mean that any regular joe, who has money and time, can just buy some first rate gear, go into film school, and after he comes out of it he’s another Spielberg? Anyone?! As is any “regular guy”..can make works of art such as the “Schindler’s list” after going thru some film school and practice?
Really.
Then why am I seeing a lot of crappy work both in television and in movies then? Why am I not seeing the same depth, interpretation, artistry, pace, story telling emotionally moving movie every single time…?! I assume the people who made them have been working really really hard top be able to have worked for some of the richest studios in hollywood? Why is there still so much crap?
I get it. Im young. Im poor. The work I have done so far sucks balls. but that’s because my abilities havent caught up to my “taste” yet. I know whats good..i wanna make them..but currently i am not capable yet, majority of the reason is i am not financially capable of buying all the shit I need, and learning all the knowledge that I need to know….or so I assume. Now when it comes to,”learning enriches talent”, I will agree on you on that. But you had to have talent in the first place.
A tree wont grow without a seed.
Quobetah
New=Better -
[Gerald Baria] “I get it. Im young. Im poor. The work I have done so far sucks balls. but that’s because my abilities havent caught up to my “taste” yet. I know whats good..i wanna make them..but currently i am not capable yet, majority of the reason is i am not financially capable of buying all the shit I need, and learning all the knowledge that I need to know….or so I assume. Now when it comes to,”learning enriches talent”, I will agree on you on that. But you had to have talent in the first place.
A tree wont grow without a seed.”
Gerald, this a terrifically straightforward thing for you to say. There is nothing wrong with you being where you are developmentally. And it is terrific that you aspire to make great things. There is also nothing at all wrong with you choosing FCP X as a tool to grow with. For laying things out this way, you got my vote.
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Gerald, thanks for the good response. I think this is one of the most interesting side conversations I’ve had here.
[Gerald Baria] “See this is my problem, and the one I’m disagreeing on..especially those words in bold. Not suffiecient for sucess, yes..but “not nescessary” now that is just appaling. Does that mean that any regular joe, who has money and time, can just buy some first rate gear, go into film school, and after he comes out of it he’s another Spielberg? Anyone?! As is any “regular guy”..can make works of art such as the “Schindler’s list” after going thru some film school and practice?”
We treat the professions based on traditional arts as if they were somehow special: that there’s a magic spark within a person called Talent or Creativity that pre-ordains them for success. I don’t dispute that tremendous natural talent is a huge advantage, but I think that saying innate ability is necessary for success is elitist and untrue.
I don’t disagree at all that it takes an incredible amount of ability to create a truly great film. I’m just saying that it immaterial whether that ability is innate or developed over time.
Spielberg is an interesting example. Was he exceptionally talented? Was he born with a gift for filmmaking? Maybe — but USC didn’t think so. They rejected his film school applications twice.
I’d argue Spielberg is a great example of how hard work breeds success. He started making films as a child with his father’s 8mm camera — and then he just never stopped. His “talent” may not have been filmmaking; it may been passion, drive, and the ability and desire to never stop learning.
When Spielberg made Schindler’s List in 1993, he was 47. Given that he started making films when he was 12, he had 35 years to hone his craft. 35 years to accumulate experience and perspective. 35 years to work, study, learn, and improve.
I don’t think a regular Joe can just buy gear, go to film school, and come out a genius. I do think it’s possible that Spielberg was a regular Joe who worked damn hard to earn his success.
[Gerald Baria] “Then why am I seeing a lot of crappy work both in television and in movies then? Why am I not seeing the same depth, interpretation, artistry, pace, story telling emotionally moving movie every single time…?! I assume the people who made them have been working really really hard top be able to have worked for some of the richest studios in hollywood? Why is there still so much crap?”
You are conflating commercial and artistic success. Hollywood doesn’t. Hollywood is a set of businesses trying to make money.
[Gerald Baria] “Now when it comes to,”learning enriches talent”, I will agree on you on that. But you had to have talent in the first place. A tree wont grow without a seed.”
Have you ever met anyone with literally zero talent? Can you be sure?
I really do encourage you to read the books I mentioned earlier (Pressfield’s War of Art [or its less ethereal brother Do the Work]), Gladwell’s Outliers, and Colvin’s Talent Is Overrated). Whether or not they change your mind on the topic of our debate, they have valuable lessons on how we can work to improve ourselves and our performances.
Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events -
To amplify on this subject I would suggest that some people have greater genetic ability in certain areas – visual, audio, linguistic. As such you might find prodigies in music, poetry and the visual arts – it’s not hard to find someone with a natural eye for composition, an ear for music or a flair for writing.
I will leave aside the whole notion of the importance of combining those gifts with the gift to learn and the gift to work hard and say instead that there is no such gift for making movies, because there is no single skill that is involved.
There is no part of the brain that is mapped for filmmaking the way there is for audio, visual and language. There is no part of the brain mapped for dramatic narrative. The ability to make a great movie involves all sorts of different talents – you don’t have to be gifted visually (see Billy wilder) you don’t have to be gifted linguistically (see Alfred Hitchcock) and while it’s not unusual for filmmakers to be musicians it is by no means the rule.
It is rare to find great films by young people (Welles and Spielberg come first to mind) and there are no Mozarts of the cinema that I am aware of.
Gerald spoke of developing “taste” as an aspect of creativity but taste is something that is absolutely not genetic, it’s an acquired appreciation developed over time. There’s an old saying something to the effect that the way to know whether a painting is good or not is to first look at a million other paintings (Gladwell would reduce this to 10,000 I’m sure).
As for why most movies suck, well there’s plenty of blame to go around, but one thing is for sure, most sets in Hollywood are filled with people of enormous natural talent, from the on screen talent to the production crew to those working in post. Neither talent nor good intentions can override a system where movies are supervised by committees who are in turn supervised by other committees. A camel is a horse designed by a committee.
Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
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nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf -
[Gerald Baria] “Many people can get the best equipment, best crew, best grading tools, huge budgets..but if the director has NO TALENT, his movie will be CRAP.”
That’s half right, and you are talking of a situation where the DIRECTOR has left in other people hands al that meaningless “technical mumbo jumbo”.
You are saying that the only talent needed to make a great film is the Director’s talent.
Take your camera, go out alone and show your talent.
Win the right to direct others showing that you can direct your self.When Michelangelo painted the “Sistine Chapel” (with a huge crew) he has already shown what he was able to do and he new very well him self all his “mumbo jumbo”.
[Gerald Baria] “You can argue all you want that only 4 decades of hard work and experience is the ONLY way to do great stuff but the proof is in the pudding. I see american TV everyday, I see hollywood movies every week. And those are old well equipped, hard working “pros” but 98% of the things I see is still CRAP. Because talent, can and will never be learned.”
That’s a completely different discussion Gerald.
That the real talented people and the new ideas have a hard way to go is absolutely true, but that happens in every single field in real life, not only in art or film making. That’s like that from the kindergarden up.
rafael
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