OT but part of the debate I think

[Walter Soyka]

[Thomas Frank] “I think you didn’t get what I am saying “talent” the “creativity” the “imagination” is half… it is part of your success, never mind it is your success. Anybody can educate themselves with technical mumbo jumbo…”

So you think creativity cannot be learned? Again, I must disagree. Creativity is a process which can be studied; it’s an activity which can be practiced; it’s a skill which can be improved.

I think that part of the point of the original blog post was that while anyone can take the time to learn the concrete aspects of the field, there is a large subset of people around the industry who don’t accept that they would benefit from doing so. Instead, they believe their extreme “talent” is more than enough.

[Thomas Frank] “Funny a coworker said something like this similar on FCPX… can’t use FCPX professionally try using your imagination. hihihihihi”

I’d argue this, but I guess it’d just be technical mumbo jumbo.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events

[Thomas Frank]

Can’t complain, growing establishment. What about your path?

[Bill Davis]

Gosh, Marvin…

Are you saying that a group of those in the “priest class” of a particular profession have NEVER dismissed the newcomers who see new possibilities, or methods of thinking, or yes new tool sets with a curmudgeonly “that’s not how we PROS do it” knee jerk dismissal?

Jeez, dude, history is rife with that. Like it or not, the new ALWAYS pushes aside the old.

Experience and talent both have great value. But NEITHER of those are enough to protect you in times of great change.

For a civilization to advance to dismiss EITHER the experience of age OR the energy of youth and progress are equally stupid IMO.

And sorry, but there are plenty of “old pros” around here who appear to be stuck in their existing business model and can’t see any picture outside of their suites. I honestly hope they get it precisely right and time their migrations from their old practices to more modern ones at exactly the right time. And I hope the brash youngsters last long enough to temper their enthusiasm for the new with the experience and wisdom that comes with finally seeing that the “old ways” grew that way for good reasons –

But just like in politics, the extremes are usually where the plodders typically get stuck.

And I do believe that has happened here a lot.

FWIW

“Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions.”-Justice O’Connor

[Thomas Frank]

True you can investigate it but you can’t acquire it. Well maybe with the red pill.
You an argue with FCPX all you want technical or not, he has done it on two projects.
He says it’s like a Adobe sweet from many developers send it out for sound, grading and printing it to tape.
Me on the other hand like to keep it in house. To bad Smoke cost as much as the new canon EOS 300 camera. 🙁
Maybe next year… 🙂

[Aindreas Gallagher]

[Bill Davis] “on the screens of millions of iPads there are other games being played. And out there, there are probably 20 MILLION opportunities to craft a reputation and a decent life.

The real disaster, IMO is propagating the idea that the ONLY game that makes sense to play is the shiny one being shown at the Movies or on Network TV in an era where new communications patterns and new income streams are cropping up literally every day. IMO the big problem isn’t helping the new kids see the real trees in this forest. It’s allowing ourselves the freedom to ask if we’re even IN the right forest at all.

“

ah god Bill, you’re funny, and a little depressing, and I pray that no spunky young entrant reads a one of your posts. ever.

of course. There are no trees, there is no skills attainment, there is no previous generation, the kids aren’t obsessively watching and internalising the craft of film makers they admire, films they adore, and beginning to wonder at the role of the editor in the creation of said films.

Scorsese’s smugglers craft doc I always found fascinating – i wrote my wee design thesis on it. Its a gorgeous piece. His debt to Minnelli, Ray et al.

Scorsese is a product of observation. He is utterly himself now, but he grew out of internalising observation.

And so what are we to observe? A cheaply made corporate film, or the best of film? the best of documentary? realising that in fog of war Macnamara was addressing a carefully placed monitor screen? don’t you love the placement of the cameras?

It is your horrific push against a respect for the top end, as if it is some closed pyramid scam, to be ignored, that i find truly and crassly irritating Bill – and let me stop you here – I’m not angry with you, indeed I’m not venting any anger: I am simply, on a personal level, irritated by the inanity of your arguments.

People in the creative arts, by definition, every day, to the best of their abilities, aspire to the best of the craft. they aspire to matchlessly express the art, (and after a fashion, themselves), building on, and informed by the best of their peers, and the best of those that have gone before.

In order to do this at the highest level, in order to express their skill at the highest pitch, they will strive to rise through the profession.

NOT EVERYONE DOES. (to borrow your caps)

My father was a good documentary maker, my mother is a good actress.

Neither have received oscars or nobels.

Your deathless idiotic argument that the finest expressions of editing “one of the 2,000 rarified slots at the top of that Hollywood pyrimid – or even one of the 20,000 “noted professionals” slots at the level down from that”… god almighty Bill. the notion that it is, in effect, a static mute lottery that needs to be ignored, because of its rarified number, that we should wade out in reverse into the mass of some proposed twenty million, is, I find, one of the most truly anti-intellectual, depressing, death of craft arguments one could ever encounter.

I find your proposed argument and boxing of attainment into a false rarified cabal both contemptibly false, and indescribably annoying.

For shame, frankly.

http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics

[Herb Sevush]

[Bill Davis] “But while you’re trying to get one of the 2,000 rarified slots at the top of that Hollywood pyrimid – or even one of the 20,000 “noted professionals” slots at the level down from that, or the 200,000 slots down at the “working craftsman” level – over on the web, in corporate suites, and on the screens of millions of iPads there are other games being played. And out there, there are probably 20 MILLION opportunities to craft a reputation and a decent life.”

So you think being ignorant of the basics of the craft of visual storytelling is some sort of advantage? That Ipad viewers prefer a shitty looking image and badly recorded sound? Most people don’t grow up to be novelists or poets but it still helps to know an adjective from an adverb, even if your posting on the web.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf

[Herb Sevush]

[Thomas Frank] “to a uprising generation that might be more talented with less technical knowledge which is learnable.”

You make the mistake of many talent scouts in various sports who look at a kid and say, jeez look at his natural ability, what an athlete, we can teach him how to (hit, pitch, throw, catch …)but we can’t teach natural ability. Then they sign the kid and it is almost always a disaster, he never does learn the skills, because it turns out that “learning” is also a talent, and if you don’t have the habit of learning down before your twenty, your not very likely to pick it up later.

What I’m trying to say is that the ability to learn what you so contemptuously term “technical knowledge” is a rare talent, as rare as having a good eye for composition or color, and that it’s a losers choice to bet on some talented youngster who has not shown an interest in the technical side of his trade. Imagination is good, ideas are a dime a dozen but the ability to execute, to put thoughts into action is rarest of all. It also helps if you know how to light.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf

[Marvin Holdman]

Wow Bill, way to completely miss my point. You are either a troll or muttonhead. Either way, you really haven’t got a clue.

Marvin Holdman
Production Manager
Tourist Network
8317 Front Beach Rd, Suite 23
Panama City Beach, Fl
phone 850-234-2773 ext. 128
cell 850-585-9667
skype username – vidmarv

[Jeremy Garchow]

It’s a shame that all of this mud slinging was caused becuase of the release of cheap and incomplete piece of editing software.

This sucks.

There is nothing to learn from here.

[Aindreas Gallagher]

Wrong. This isn’t mud slinging, this is fundamental debate.

http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics