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Old dogs new tricks
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[Robin S. Kurz] “Where did I ever infer anything even close to that, Oliver?”
Do you think you can try to dial the ego down? The whole discussion doesn’t revolve around you.
[Robin S. Kurz] “Aside from the fact that FCP X most definitely was years ahead in many workflow ways, even in it’s first incarnation,”
BS. It was so advanced that multiple vendors had to jump in and fill in the blanks to augment what you couldn’t do with getting in and out of X. Workflow doesn’t involve one application in isolation. As recent as this week, I am still unable to to get a perfect translation of FCP 7 into X, nor from X to Resolve without some level of manual fixes.
[Robin S. Kurz] “background import, transcoding, rendering and things such as auditions etc. etc.?”
Nothing background about some of these. Since they happen in idle time, not in the background. Proxy and auditions are unique in how that’s handled. However other background functions were being done in the FAST editing systems a decade ago.
[Robin S. Kurz] “additional metadata windows/support”
What are you talking about? Have you ever looked at the level of metadata supported in something like Media Composer?
[Robin S. Kurz] “How and when could you make effects for FCP 7 with Motion in any way even close to the way you can now, first or ever? Another spoiler: you couldn’t.”
Correct. The FCP 7 comment wasn’t specifically tied to Motion, but in creating custom effects (using FxScript). It was actually a positive reference for Apple, even though didn’t seem to understand that.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
[Oliver Peters] “[tony west] “Let’s say removing background noise. Would that be easier in X or AVID for a student new to editing?”
I would not do it in either NLE. And what does that have to do with learning difficulty?”
I didn’t ask you what you wold do, I asked about a student. And it has everything to do with it.
X tells you when there is a problem with audio. A student may put down an audio track and think it’s fine
but then get alerted that it’s too low. They just learned something right there that the software taught them.
I don’t recall the others doing that.[Oliver Peters] “Not corporations, but TV production companies “
Yeah, the same thing man, big corps own TV stations.
[Oliver Peters] “The same argument could be made in favor of Adobe CC on subscription, because the accounting works out better for the bean counters. Especially since you get the whole Adobe suite.”
It’s not cheaper than X and at local stations reporters who have to cut wouldn’t use the suite anyway. Some don’t even want to do the cutting they are doing.
[Oliver Peters] “I can and have brought students up to speed with all manner of NLEs in the same amount of time.”
That’s hard to believe right there.
I remember when X first came out and people were complaining about it missing all those pages of Preferences that legend had. That’s less to teach right there. Unless you skip over that.
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[tony west] “X tells you when there is a problem with audio. A student may put down an audio track and think it’s fine but then get alerted that it’s too low. They just learned something right there that the software taught them. I don’t recall the others doing that.”
Or you could actually teach them to listen and evaluate and understand the meters. Those are the sort of automatics that I avoid because they suck. They aren’t good and you have no idea what the software is actually doing. If I’m teaching concepts, which is what I do in a film class, I don’t want them taking a stupid shortcut that will get them in trouble down the road on a real job.
So I’ll toss one back at you. What about CALM compliance? No way to deal with that in X or really MC for than matter. OTOH, Premiere has you covered.
[tony west] “Yeah, the same thing man, big corps own TV stations.”
Again, that’s not what I was talking about. I was specifically referring to TV show production companies, who are the ones that hire freelance talent. That’s primarily where you get paid more for knowing Avid. Admittedly those are often union gigs and union gigs in LA tend to pay more than non-union, though that’s not universally true. If we are talking about ABC, NBC, etc. you simply won’t get the job if you don’t know the NLE they use. Not a question of more or less pay.
[tony west] “That’s hard to believe right there. “
I’ve been doing it since Avid came out and have successfully trained students on a wide range of linear and nonlinear edit systems for decades. So believe or don’t believe it.
Regarding preferences… I don’t skip it, but I do simplify it by boiling it down to what I want them to use based on the tutorial media I’m providing. FCP “legacy” format prefs were very daunting because of all the variations introduced by outboard IO hardware. By comparison, that same situation was never the case with Media Composer and starting a new project there has always been dirt simple.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
[Oliver Peters] “[tony west] “Let’s say removing background noise. Would that be easier in X or AVID for a student new to editing?”
I would not do it in either NLE. And what does that have to do with learning difficulty?”
Completely agree.
[Oliver Peters] “[tony west] “Brother, you just made the argument why corporations will see X as a way to drive down cost.”
Far too simplistic of a point-of-view. The same argument could be made in favor of Adobe CC on subscription, because the accounting works out better for the bean counters. Especially since you get the whole Adobe suite.”
Going to disagree here, any subscription model can be expensive over the long term, especially when there is no off ramp. Lack of any clear strategy when exiting any subscription model can be a huge cost. I, for one, am not willing to play with matches.
😉When life give me lemons there are two ways to look at it: A glass of lemonade or a gas guzzling clunker waiting to fall apart on me at any given moment. Much prefer the lemonade.
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[David Mathis] “Going to disagree here, any subscription model can be expensive over the long term, especially when there is no off ramp. Lack of any clear strategy when exiting any subscription model can be a huge cost. I, for one, am not willing to play with matches.”
You have to look at it from the corporate POV. When you buy software as a small owner, you might view it as an asset or capital expense. For a larger corporation or educational institution there is no asset value. If you sell the company, no one cares how many seats of FCP X you might own. There is also no big concern about an off-ramp.
By shifting to subscription, it becomes a monthly expense, like other utility bills. That has significance for tax purposes, too. Also when you look at the body of what’s covered by a CC subscription, it becomes quite attractive for a corporate environment, especially if they have photo, web and print needs. On top of that, an enterprise account hands the keys over to the IT department, which is also a plus for many companies.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
[tony west] “Yeah, the same thing man, big corps own TV stations.”
I don’t think Oliver is talking about TV stations. I think he’s talking about production companies like Electus, Endemol, Bunim-Murray, etc.,. in major markets. In my experience with this, typically Avid gigs were better paying gigs because they were bigger budget productions all around, the workflow better fit Avid (multi-editor, thousands of hours of footage, etc.,) and they were looking to hire more experienced editors and the more experienced editors pretty much all know Avid.
This isn’t always the case (ex. Bunim-Murray used to run FCP Legend before they switched back to Avid) but it’s a pretty accurate rule of thumb to go by. I know of another Reality TV-centric facility in LA that, AFAIK, was always FCP and were very optimistic about X but recently switched over to Avid. Why? Can’t say for sure but I’m trying to have lunch w/someone over there and pick their brain about the decision making process.
When I moved to LA 10 years ago FCP Legend jobs were pretty few and far between and 99/100 always on low budget projects. By the time FCP 7 rolled out the application had gained much more acceptance and you could earn an okay living only using FCP. Still, not as many (nor as high paying) gigs as Avid but a much better situation than in the FCP 3/4 days. FCP Legend certainly had a big price advantage when it was only $999 and even Avids were $60,000 and up (which explains it’s rapid growth on lower budget projects), but these days the price difference between the NLE’s isn’t very significant. It should go w/o saying that if Apple would’ve released FCP 8 instead of FCP X we’d be having a very different conversation about NLEs right now.
[Oliver Peters] ” Admittedly those are often union gigs and union gigs in LA tend to pay more than non-union, though that’s not universally true. “
FWIW scripted programing is pretty much all union and unscripted programming is pretty much all non-union.
[David Mathis] “Going to disagree here, any subscription model can be expensive over the long term, especially when there is no off ramp. Lack of any clear strategy when exiting any subscription model can be a huge cost. I, for one, am not willing to play with matches.”
There is rarely any long term ownership for the companies Oliver is talking about. Everything from cameras to office space to NLEs are only rented for the duration of the project.
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[Robin S. Kurz] “Many know too well that in the end, like it or not, the accountants make more decisions far more often than they should”
Indeed Robin
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[Oliver Peters] “Or you could actually teach them to listen and evaluate and understand the meters. “
That’s obvious, you are trying to avoid the question I asked you.
I asked you about teaching the the software not about your own opinion about how well it works.
[Oliver Peters] “Those are the sort of automatics that I avoid because they suck.”
So you would teach your students “kids just skip over that part of the software because I think it sucks”
hahahah that’s silly
[Oliver Peters] “‘ve been doing it since Avid came out and have successfully trained students on a wide range of linear and nonlinear edit systems for decades. So believe or don’t believe it.”
How many classes a week do you teach?
Are you a full time instructor or a person that teaches a class a couple of times a year?
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Just for clarification David, I’m not saying removing background in X is better than using RX 4
That’s a distraction argument.
The question on the table was which NLE is easier to learn.
Then I picked a topic to narrow it down.
Weather it’s good or not is irrelevant to the question on the table. Which one is easier to learn.
It’s hands down X
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[Andrew Kimery] “I don’t think Oliver is talking about TV stations. I think he’s talking about production companies like Electus, Endemol, Bunim-Murray, etc.,”
I got you
I was talking about TV stations because there are way more of them out there
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