Need help with non-controllable device – dropping frames

[Thaxter Clavemarlton]

What KIND or analog source are you using?

If its VHS or similar tape-based source, (or even some free-running sources like a live camera) there is usually severe timebase error (video NOT playing at the standard and constant frame-rate).
A monitor can usually compensate for these, but they can wreak havoc when trying to dub to another video device (which is attempting to record the video frames at a more precise and constant speed.)

The best way to dub a tape with poor stability is to connect its deck through a true timebase corrector (TBC) and/or frame sync device (with a large enough “window” to compensate for the non-standard source.

Or, if you have access to a small digital “Video Mixer” (more precisely called a digital Video SWITCHER),
Panasonic, Videonics and DataVideo all offer these units.
The switchers can act as effective TBCs because they use internal digital clocks to “create” a stable video signal even from from various “un-sync’ed sources.
So you can feed your unstable VHS (or other source) into the switcher and send the switcher’s “stable” output to your DV deck.

Panasonic:
https://www.studio1productions.com/vid102.htm
https://www.studio1productions.com/vid100.htm
and others

Focus:
https://www.focusinfo.com/products/mx-4/mx4.htm
https://www.focusinfo.com/products/mx4dv/mx4dv.htm

And the best of the bunch, DataVideo:
https://www.datavideo-tek.com/products/se_800_main_page.htm

Certain of these video switchers can usually be rented from companies that set-up “Hotel Ballroom Events” in most cities.

[Jhwilson]

I’m actually coming from a videonics MX mixer with four analog video cameras in a church. We’re coming from the videonices with an S-video signal to the DSR-11, then capturing as I mentioned before.

If the videonics puts out timecode, I’m not aware of that, so I’m all ears!

Mac G5, Dual 2.0, Superdrives, 10.3.3, FCP 4.5, 1.5 GB DDR SDRAM

[Thaxter Clavemarlton]

I don’t think I mentioned TimeCODE.
I did discuss TimeBASE.

If you’re using a digital source (like the Videonics) and still getting dropped frames, it may be that your Capture Scratch Hard Drive is too slow to make a long-term captures.
Is it an internal drive, and NOT the one with the Mac System folder and FCP on it?

If you experience no problems with capturing from the DV tape that you record during the live show, that may be your best solution.

I know it adds another hour to the production, but some things just don’t work given a certain combination of gear.

(You might try using a different camcorder or a digital capture card to transcode to FW and into the Mac/FCP.)

[Jhwilson]

I appreciate your help, even though it leaves me where I started. Thanks for the effort.

To answer your question, I mentioned in my first post that it is a separate internal drive and it’s plenty fast.
It will capture for 10 minutes fine then started dropping three or four frames every minute or so.
If it followed a pattern I believe I could find it, but it just won’t pattern out.

The extra hour would not be so bad except that we’re on the air 3 hours after the service ends.
That extra hour could be a whole lot of help!

Thanks.

Mac G5, Dual 2.0, Superdrives, 10.3.3, FCP 4.5, 1.5 GB DDR SDRAM

[Thaxter Clavemarlton]

[jhwilson] “even though it leaves me where I started.”

Not if trying another capture card (like a Canopus) works better for you.
https://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1222384&CatId=1424

But, from your description of the problem (starts OK, then starts dropping frames after a time) sounds VERY MUCH like it IS a “too slow/too full” hard disk problem.

100+ GB HD’s are very expensive these days.
You might install a new one and see what happens.

[Jhwilson]

We tried to remedy the situation by installing the new 300 gb hard drive that we’re using now. It is empty, only used for capture and we can’t keep it going without droppig something.

Again, it will capture fine when playing from the DV tape with the time code…I am suspecting a time code issue with the non-controllable device.

I wish the DSR-11 would “add” a time code to the stream so it would appear as a Firewire NTSC device and stream the time code with the video.

I also have access to a DSR-20, but I don’t know if it would be the same thing.

Mac G5, Dual 2.0, Superdrives, 10.3.3, FCP 4.5, 1.5 GB DDR SDRAM

[Mark Raudonis]

Just got my new Markertek catalog. on p. 135 there’s a box made by Laird called “Time IN” which inserts timecode into your DV stream.

Model # LTM-TC100F $625.50

This might help in your situation. At least it’s worth checking it out.

mark

[Thaxter Clavemarlton]

[jhwilson] “I am suspecting a time code issue with the non-controllable device.”

I’m just not so sure about this.
While its an interesting theory, I don’t think that, logically, it should be the problem.
Even if you have a TC “present” in the signal, FCP won’t be able to “control” the device and so you’d still need to use “Capture Now”.

I’m not sure what you have tried:
Have you been able capture cleanly for an hour from the DSR-11 while PLAYING a TAPE… AND still only using the “Capture Now” feature?

I suggest you experiment with the following:

Hook a DV camcorder DIRECTLY to the Mac via FW.
Do not put a tape in the camera.
Just turn on the camera, point it at something and hit Capture Now (non-controllable device) and see if you start dropping frames.
Since the non-rolling camera will not generate TC, you’ll see if you have the same problems you do with the Videonics > DSR-11 as the input source.

If it is OK with just the non-playing camcorder, try connecting using the Videonics > DSR-20 combo.

If it is still NOT working with just the non-playing camcorder, you could try the adding TC-generator box that was suggested.

Please post back as you experiment.

[Jhwilson]

I saw that as well yesterday. Hard to miss that new catalog!

I hate to try that suggestion just because of the price and it appears that you STILL have to have an external time code generator to interface with it.

Kind of expensive to test a theory for me.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Mac G5, Dual 2.0, Superdrives, 10.3.3, FCP 4.5, 1.5 GB DDR SDRAM

[Jhwilson]

Man, I really appreciate the suggestions. It has me thinking a different direction here.

I have always started the DSR-11 recording and then tried to capture. If what you’re saying is true, and the DSR-11 has timecode in the stream, why couldn’t I then use the Firewire NTSC to start the recording of the DSR-11 and try it that way?

To answer your question, yes, it will capture an hour tape with no dropped frames and no problems. It will sometimes capture almost flawlessly using the non-controllable device as well. All of our cameras going into the Videonics mixer are as you described