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Murch and NLEs from IBC
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[Tony West] “Oliver, remember how Apple changed the whole Library-Project set up?
Who’s idea was it for them to change that?”I don’t know. My opinion is that it was ProApps responding to negative customer feedback, but in a sense also a de facto admission they made a mistake. Maybe even through their own internal QA cycles they decided it wasn’t the best approach.
[Tony West] “I thought the guys from Focus said they were in talks with Apple about that. (I’m too lazy to look it up)”
I don’t recall that. Below, I’ve included all the relevant “Focus” articles.
[Tony West] “You guys might be right that Apple would not listen to Joel Coen but I won’t believe that until I hear it from Joel himself. He is going to have to say “Tony, Apple won’t take my call”. “
It’s not whether Apple would or wouldn’t take their call. It’s whether Apple would act on suggested feature requests. Murch did see it before it was unveiled publicly and that didn’t make any difference.
– Oliver
“Focus” links:
https://www.apple.com/final-cut-pro/in-action/focus/
https://www.fcp.co/final-cut-pro/articles/1666-focus-editor-jan-kovac-in-q-a-session-at-lacpug
https://www.fcp.co/final-cut-pro/articles/1629-replay-the-light-iron-focus-event
https://www.fcp.co/final-cut-pro/articles/1617-how-the-hollywood-feature-film-focus-was-edited-on-final-cut-pro-x-part-one
https://www.fcp.co/final-cut-pro/articles/1622-how-the-hollywood-feature-film-focus-was-edited-on-final-cut-pro-x-part-two
https://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/2015/03/31/focus/– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
[David Lawrence] “Got that covered ;)”
Awesome!
But not even close to a consensus answer. LOL
This got me thinking about the dueling scholars and guitarists who’ve written about that note, savaging other people’s research, the forensic science involved…but I don’t think that anyone has written a book about the controversy yet. I’ve started work on a little essay about it, but as it’s turning into a big essay, I really may yet turn it into a book.
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[Oliver Peters] “It gets down to preferences, so whether or not X has superior database tools (which I don’t believe it does for feature film editing) is irrelevant, if that doesn’t mesh with the editor’s style.”
Quite so, which is why I’ve been pushing so hard on the idea that choices are made for personal reasons at least as much as technology reasons, and frankly, the reason why one tech choice is more compelling than another is probably mostly personal. Entirely personal? Maybe.
But my point was about takeaways from Walter’s specific example, even if I stated it more broadly than I intended. (Who? ME?)
My point about Walter is that an NLE’s database approach is irrelevant to him. He doesn’t use them, for exactly the reasons you mention, to which I’ll add that no matter how good a bin is for METAdata, index cards probably work better for tracking DATA. 🙂 At least for Walter.
I’m glad to hear that he still uses index cards and FileMaker. The other thing I’d been thinking about this is that it means his workflow isn’t affected by things as trivial as NLEs. Honestly, that’s the least interesting part of the process. LOL
Instead, he has a team that’s on top of what he wants from FileMaker and index cards or what have you, and almost none of those people experience much of a blip as he moves from one editing platform to another. I’d think that their input and output process hasn’t changed all that much in decades, right?
Once Walter is editing using the blink of his eye in his Google Glasses, I bet he’s still going to want to see index cards on the HUD of his self-driving Tesla.
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[Tim Wilson] “index cards probably work better for tracking DATA. 🙂 At least for Walter.”
Actually this is a very common practice for many editors – not just Walter. You can shuffle around the index cards and see the affect of these changes on the story flow in a far better fashion than first doing the manipulation of those scenes within the NLE. It’s a form of shorthand. Walter’s approach is more detailed than that of many others, but the use of a scene wall with index cards is a widespread practice among film editors.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
[Oliver Peters] “Actually this is a very common practice for many editors – not just Walter. You can shuffle around the index cards and see the affect of these changes on the story flow in a far better fashion than first doing the manipulation of those scenes within the NLE. It’s a form of shorthand. Walter’s approach is more detailed than that of many others, but the use of a scene wall with index cards is a widespread practice among film editors.”
Not just editors, but writers too. Filling a wall with notecards and moving them around at will is a great way to get an overview of a story structure. It also enables collaboration at this level in a much more fluid and interactive way than any software I’m aware of.
One of my favorite past clients, IDEO is legendary for their use of post-it notes and 4’x8′ foam core panels to quickly document and iterate ideas. No matter how big your monitor is, it can’t compete with 4’x8′ foam core. Metadata is hard to share if it’s kept in a proprietary database and hidden on a tiny screen. Murch’s system works well for him for the same reason IDEO’s works well for their teams.
_______________________
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[Michael Gissing] “I am not the least bit surprised he favours a track based NLE, simply because he knows that it is a better approach for complicated sound workflows”
For what little it’s worth, at IMDb, the “Sound Department” listing is on top, and “Editor” second. Some of the biggest movies he’s worked on were sound, rather than picture. Not that he hasn’t done plenty of both. He was nominated for picture AND sound editing on Apocalypse (how often has THAT happened???), winning for sound.
In my head anyway, I rank the achievements of Apocalypse in order:
1) Writing/directing (inextricable to me in this case)
2) acting
3)a) “sound montage” 3)b) Carmine Coppola’s score…of course integrated into the sound montage, but having a degree of independence
4) cinematography,
5) picture editing.Visuals at the end of list? Yes. Just for grins, watch it sometime with the picture turned off. His work and Carmine Coppola’s score will make you realize the extent of his mastery of every aspect of sound. Then watch another time with the sound turned off. Not even vaguely comparable.
He’s done other great stuff obviously, but the only way he could have pulled off Conversation (worthy of a much longer “conversation” on its own) and Apocalypse in particular was if he was willing to try everything, regardless of whether or not it was conventional….
…getting back to my thinking that an awful lot of ALL of this has mainly to do with predisposition, not “technology.” If Walter wasn’t ready to just “roll with it” he’d have never lasted with Francis, regardless of the editing platform.
That’s why I think it’s especially interesting to keep inner dynamics front and center for these discussions.
It’s a shame that discussion of deep, inner motivations are so often framed as pejorative accusations about the other side of the debate, rather than held up to the light alongside our own.
Migration and settlement are fundamental, equally important human social behaviors. They work themselves into our own choices, too: do we prefer our skills to migrate, or to develop a richness of expertise that constant migration doesn’t allow?
Not that these are either/or states of course, any more than X or not-X is binary. Many people here (most people?) use both. I think that some X-philes find this perplexing, if not distressing. If we are more than a monoculture, we must surely be anti-Apple!
Uhm, no. Not that monocultures are bad. It speaks to the richness of expertise of “settlement” rather than “migration.” There’s an awful lot to be said for getting reinforcement from people who agree with you. It’s what most of us covet, most of the time. You can move more quickly when you minimize friction.
To get back to Andrew’s point about Fincher and Premiere Pro, I remember reading that pretty much every shot in his recent movies has gone through After Effects at some point in the process. From what I hear, Premiere offers some nifty affinities for just such an eventuality.
One reason why After Effects is so important to Fincher is that he’s inclined to change framing in post. For nearly all of his shots iirc, but I’m sure plenty of folks here can correct me.
That’s anathema to most directors I’d think, and surely even more cinematographers. The DP has historically been the owner of the frame, and I think David’s revolution in this respect is no, I’M the owner of the frame, and I’m not through framing shots until I’m through editing.
Hence, AFTER effects. So, yeah, Premiere is the best tool for him, but as much the best tool for his personality as his his approach to technology….which is also driven by his personality.
And to swing back around to Murch as philosopher, not that he goes as far as they did, but he’s quite like the early Russians that way. Maybe the first American to popularize among film nerds the things that Russian film nerds have been talking about for nearly a century. The cutting itself reveals a higher truth that exists separately from story and above it.
Philosophy, truth, ownership, personality — technology takes a back seat. (CARS!) A seat in the boot. Bound and gagged in the boot. Thrown bound and gagged from the boot at high speeds.
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[Tim Wilson] “To get back to Andrew’s point about Fincher and Premiere Pro, I remember reading that pretty much every shot in his recent movies has gone through After Effects at some point in the process. From what I hear, Premiere offers some nifty affinities for just such an eventuality.”
The assistant processes a lot of the footage using SynthEyes for tracking and AE for processing. This means a significant number of shots in the editor’s timeline are AE comps. The “render and replace” function that’s now in Premiere Pro was largely created based on this experience. This directly goes to the topic – direct interaction between editor and developer.
– Oliver
https://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/2014/11/07/gone-girl/
https://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/2012/01/13/the-girl-with-the-dragon-tattoo/Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
[Tim Wilson] “Migration and settlement are fundamental, equally important human social behaviors. They work themselves into our own choices, too: do we prefer our skills to migrate, or to develop a richness of expertise that constant migration doesn’t allow?”
I have done both over my career. Teen film maker and kit drummer to telecine grader, to film processing, then news camera & sound followed by running a facilities company and producing broadcast documentaries. That was before I was thirty.
Even when I concentrated on sound post production it was totally led by exploring digital audio in the mid eighties. So it was a constant migration through different skill sets and technologies. Although I settled into audio post for 25 years it was always with a view to developing DAWs. The decision to go back to grade & online 10 years ago was motivated by my desire to do a physical migration and move to the tiny state of Tasmania and live on a farm. Down here at the bottom of the world there is almost no other facilities that can do complete picture sound post.
So in a way I think it is possible to both migrate and bring along and develop skill sets, even things like grading that had thirty years in between. I don’t know Murch but I do know that as a sound editor I was shocked at some of the crudeness of NLE functionality. So many key strokes or mouse clicks and such annoying overwriting behaviors. I do know what I prefer and am happy to argue for things that I wish would make driving an NLE to do grade & finishing work as elegant as the audio tools that I use.
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Who was it that reminded us that there is no paper in the Star Trek universe?
And things are always done the way they’re done … Right up until they’re not. Such is life.
Just last month I had a producer disappear for an hour and come back with a white board covered with color printouts of the storyboard PDFs that he set up in the edit suite. It was nice. But at lunch we were talking about a scene order issue and I had my laptop along, so I fired up X and my Storyboards keyword collection and there it was. All the storyboard PDFs laid out in order. Functionally the same thing hanging on the wall back in the studio. If I’d imported them into Keynote or even just did a quick stringout in X we could have played with scene order all day long. Could have sorted on an iPad or who knows, maybe on my iWatch someday – so I wouldn’t have to interrupt our meal. When we got back we went back to using the physical thing, cuz why not?
Thing is without the wall version, reference stops when you aren’t at the wall. You might like that – or not.
To each their own.
Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com – video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.
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[Bill Davis] “so I fired up X and my Storyboards keyword collection and there it was. All the storyboard PDFs laid out in order. “
Nice trick, but try that with 150 cards (or more) and 5 or 6 people in the room. 😉
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com
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