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Murch and NLEs from IBC
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[Andrew Kimery] ” It’s just not how they work. Murch’s comments about user feedback and ‘baby sitting pros’ are pretty much the same as what Ron Brinkmann said his experience was when Apple bought Nothing Real (maker of Shake). “
As brilliant of a programmer as Randy Ubilos is, the fact is that he never really designed editing software that was intended to be targeted at video editing pros.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
[Tim Wilson] “I don’t know what he’s using these days, but historically speaking, his favorite database is FileMaker Pro. There’s a terrific story about Walter’s use of FileMaker Pro on the FileMaker Pro website.”
He still does. It provides a constant across various editing platforms, just like the scene wall (note cards).
[Tim Wilson] “1) Need a database? Use a database.”
I interview a lot of film editors for some of the stories I write and a lot of them have many different ways of organizing material as they go from raw footage to rough cuts to finished cuts. In some cases X’s or Avid’s bin metadata is very useful and in other cases, it’s completely unused. It really gets down to personal preferences.
The Coens edit electronically the same way they edited (as a two-person team) on flatbeds. Murch uses tracks very heavily as a method to pre-edit audio, but also as a form of visual organization of the material (see any of the screen grabs of his timelines). Some editors swear by Avid’s script integration (ScriptSync) and others prefer to create a string-out of every dialogue line from every take in scene order first before they edit.
It gets down to preferences, so whether or not X has superior database tools (which I don’t believe it does for feature film editing) is irrelevant, if that doesn’t mesh with the editor’s style.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
[Tim Wilson] “Politics? Religion? Feh. Ask a roomful of guitarists about the opening chord of “A Hard Day’s Night” and watch the dugouts empty.)”
Got that covered 😉
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwfH9oAiPH0_______________________
David Lawrence
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[Bill Davis] “Let’s be clear here. I am NOT in any way saying that subscription is bad per se, and definitely not that any particular company is necessarily bad for employing it. There are plenty of companies that deploy it in a way that also respects customers wants and needs. I AM saying that subscription is a rapidly growing corporate “thing” that many consider a financial power play designed to shift economic leverage away from consumers and to the businesses that make it mandatory. And I find that unacceptable.
While we debate the edit functions – the executives are delighted. Their real play is sticky subscription lock in. Period. Could they provide options? Sure. Will they? Don’t hold your breath. The model isn’t about the product. It’s about the subscription model period.
Others will surely disagree and find nothing wrong with it.
But just like the music industry history is rife with business people screwing artists. There ARE in my opinions lessons there to take as we move forward in the creative arts. “Well said, Bill!
_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
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[Mark Suszko] ” The running joke about Avid for years was that it was a mediocre NLE, grafted onto the best filmmaking footage database system. The joke about Premiere was that it was the dongle for getting your copy of AfterEffects. The joke about FCPX is/was that it’s for young “bros” editing casual skateboard videos.”
Don’t forgot the running joke about FCP Legend which was that it’s what you settled for if you couldn’t afford a real NLE like Avid.
[Tim Wilson] “Here’s the thing. The sources of metadata aren’t mysterious. Some is generated by cameras, but most of it is collected by production assistants. You’d be astonished how much of it is hand written. An assistant editor then type type types all that information into fields.”
Just to riff on this, the system with the metadata also has to be available (readable and/or modifiable) to a network of people that may or may not be in the same physical location as you. Having a lot of metadata inside the NLE (regardless of which NLE it is) is great for the editor, but what about the assistant editors? The producers? The director? The VFX team in another city? This is where the need for real time collaborative tools start coming into play and somethings are just easier to do in an actual database vs an NLE.
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Oliver, remember how Apple changed the whole Library-Project set up?
Who’s idea was it for them to change that?
I thought the guys from Focus said they were in talks with Apple about that. (I’m too lazy to look it up)
Apple didn’t just change that on their own. They would have just put it out that way to begin with if that’s what they intended from the start right?
You guys might be right that Apple would not listen to Joel Coen but I won’t believe that until I hear it from Joel himself. He is going to have to say “Tony, Apple won’t take my call”.
Then I will say “shame on them” : ) -
[Oliver Peters] ”
In the case of Premiere, there are Adobe engineers involved who are studying workflows and requests and seeing how to make these changes in Premiere. It extends into media optimizations with SANs, as well. This is something not even Avid has done very much of except maybe in the early days.From what I do know of some of the people on the inside, they do study “pain points” and try to integrate solutions into the updates, but it never seems to take the form of direct features that are trackable to a certain person’s input or request. That’s what seems quite different in the eyes of these folks with Adobe compared with the other “A” companies.”
I can confirm all of this as a regular practice for us and I’m on record as saying this is a large contributing factor to Adobe’s success.
Dennis – Adobe guy
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[Andrew Kimery] “Apple makes products following its own, internal vision and, basically, users can either take it or leave it. “
I agree to certain point Andrew, this is just a matter of how much and to whom they will listen to right?
I don’t think if Joel told them to put tracks back they would, but I don’t think they would completely ignore him either. It’s semantics right?
I think they have a short list of folks they listen to and if anything they might be snubs about it : )
I’m sure there are folks telling Adobe to get rid of that subscription. They are not going to listen to that hahaha
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[Tony West] “Apple didn’t just change that on their own. They would have just put it out that way to begin with if that’s what they intended from the start right?”
Actually, I think what happened is they released an alpha-level program with incomplete Q/A testing. The initial library structure was flawed. Remember the compound clip bloat issue? (link) That was a result of the library structure. They had to redo the library to fix it.
_______________________
David Lawrence
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propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
https://lnkd.in/Cfz92F
facebook.com/dlawrence
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vimeo.com/dlawrence/albums -
I can’t let this one go by Tim.
Nobody was and is a bigger fan of FileMaker Pro then I have been for 20 years. All my scripts, production notes, schedules and call sheets were done in it.
Those FMPro scripts printed as checklists and scene notes were how I made sense of my edits in post.
And now I haven’t TOUCHED it during editing in the 4 years I’ve been using X.
The database in X blows it away for visual tracking of footage. BLOWS it away.
What I can do in 5 seconds in X to tag a range would have consumed 10 minutes in FMPro if I had used still picons (which I used to do) to represent scenes. Live footage? A non-starter.
Used properly – X IS a database. One for video content.
Period.
I can’t speak for Mr Murch having only met and interacted with him twice briefly, but I suspect that for exclusively the things he did in FileMaker Pro for project organization if the capabilities built into X were ever demonstrated to him competently, it would delight him. Maybe it has and other aspects of the system don’t mesh with his approach – but it’s not because the construct isn’t brilliant for an organized editing brain – because it is. Period. That’s opinion and speculation only. But based on how much I loved the FMPro capabilities – and how much MORE useful the X system is than that for managing video content in an edit session.
My 2 cents.
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