lively discussion at John Nack’s blog.

[Chris Harlan]

[Oliver Peters] “At some point you DO have to call a project “DONE” or you’ll work for free forever. “

Amen.

[David Lawrence]

[Aindreas Gallagher] “Basically XML as it stands doesn’t answer the issue of the personal works being enmeshed in the authoring tool to the point of being indivisible.
If you don’t own the authoring tool, in a way, you don’t own the product of that tool. That, to me, is the issue here.”

Well said.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl

[Walter Soyka]

[Aindreas Gallagher] “of course I did – the second hand indigo 2 extreme came in at 125,000 euro, and roughly around the same for the software. then I believe it was low five figures all in per year after that. the accom cost me a pretty penny too mind you. “

Aindreas, apropos of nothing — have you tried Smoke 2013? I’d be curious to hear your thoughts.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events

[Herb Sevush]

[Jeremy Garchow] “We are taking about video production tools, I can’t help but compare the tools to get the job done, production or not. “

A closer comparison might be your cellphone bill, your car lease, or the lease on your office. They all contribute to video production and they are each, in their own way, as comparable to software licensing as a camera rental.

[Jeremy Garchow] “There is a relationship, if you don’t rent gear often and the rental model is new to you, the scarcity of the tools might give you the heebie jeebies.”

for my first 15 years in the business I rented camera’s all the time, it is not new to me, and I still get the heebie jeebies from the Cloud concept. (thank you by the way for using the phrase “heebie jeebies.” I haven’t heard it in a while, nor do I recall ever having seen it written out.)

[Jeremy Garchow] “I already mentioned that I rent software. It works fine.”

I also rent software, Backblaze for backup and Webroot for security, and they both work fine. It’s not the fact of renting that bothers me, it’s what is being rented.

[Jeremy Garchow] “I see it as a cost of doing business. No matter what, I am beholden to my software and hardware choices. Unless I begin to create my own software destiny, or build a camera, I must pay for what I think is best on terms drawn up by mountains of legal paper work for which in simpy click “Agree”.

Any company at any time can make a decision that will cost me more money than I want spend. I don’t have ultimate control, so I have to trust my own instincts to sink or swim.

We can argue about what is best. The Cloud is best for Adobe, it’s a very modern solution to box shipment and revenue “problems”. “

All of which is why I am being very cautious about who I base my next workflow around. An NLE is the hub of my post workflow, in a way that a camera isn’t. If I rent a camera one day and then the following week they raise the prices or change the functionality of the camera I will simply choose a more suitable camera the next day. The changeover from one NLE system to another is a lot more complex and time consuming, as I can attest too contemplating my third season on an EOL’d FCP.

I don’t doubt that “The Cloud is best for Adobe” much like I’m sure FCPX is best for Apple. The only thing I care about is what is best for me.

At the moment, making loud noises for Adobe to hear regarding choices in their distribution of products seems best for me.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf

[Herb Sevush]

[Walter Soyka] “It used to be very common for a production to rent an AVID (back when they were spelled with all caps), both the computer hardware and the software (dongle) together.”

That was when the Avid was being used as an off-line system, not as the centerpiece of an entire workflow.

[Walter Soyka] “If software had never been sold as a product, the idea that you could own a license to software might be equally foreign.”

If there was no such thing as a perpetual license for software then we would not be having this discussion. The fact is both Adobe and I have a choice to make, and I believe we are both making it in the context of the marketplace as it exists.

[Walter Soyka] ” where do you think the camera analogy falls apart?”

This post with Jeremy covers it:

https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/52218

For me an NLE is the hub of a total workflow in which to evolve and build my business in an ongoing manner. A rental camera is a fixed piece of equipment to which you have no ongoing relationship unless you specifically choose one. If you rent a Red Epic today, you don’t care whether they will improve it or raise the prices on it tomorrow. You will evaluate the best camera to use the next time you need one. This is not my relationship with a NLE.

[Walter Soyka] “Maybe comparing it to an Alexa isn’t as good as comparing it to a Panavision?”

Panavision’s business model is interesting but really has nothing to say to me as an analogy to the Adobe situation. When I started in this business we shot everything in 16mm. Many of the DPs owned their cameras, some didn’t and sometimes we needed something special and those we rented. However those few times we shot on 35mm we always rented because I didn’t know any DP who owned their own 35mm camera. In that market Panavision’s system makes a lot of sense, but I don’t see the relevance to anything we are talking about.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf

[Jeremy Garchow]

[Herb Sevush] “A closer comparison might be your cellphone bill, your car lease, or the lease on your office. They all contribute to video production and they are each, in their own way, as comparable to software licensing as a camera rental. “

Sure, I guess they could be considered video production “tools”, albeit these are pretty broad tools.

I can get work done without an office lease.

[Herb Sevush] “All of which is why I am being very cautious about who I base my next workflow around. An NLE is the hub of my post workflow, in a way that a camera isn’t. If I rent a camera one day and then the following week they raise the prices or change the functionality of the camera I will simply choose a more suitable camera the next day. The changeover from one NLE system to another is a lot more complex and time consuming, as I can attest too contemplating my third season on an EOL’d FCP.

I don’t doubt that “The Cloud is best for Adobe” much like I’m sure FCPX is best for Apple. The only thing I care about is what is best for me.

At the moment, making loud noises for Adobe to hear regarding choices in their distribution of products seems best for me.”

Certainly. A discussion about it is absolutely practical, but we can probably put down the conspiracies/foil hats and realize that this is a new way of thinking about paying for software, and when you really look at it, ti’s not much different than what you do on a regular basis when you pay for other services.

Switching NLE’s does take some time and rethinking. Even different cameras require different workflows, they have different menus, they have different color science. It’s not as easy as just switching it on and hitting record. There are intricacies to both.

I don’t see how anyone can put full trust in any one entity, and I am not talking about just choosing one tool, I am talking about being able to trust something for which you really have no control. Situations can change in an instant. I am with you, that I have to try and make the best decisions possible, but at some point I also have to get some work done. How bad is it going to be if I pay Adobe once for a perpetual upgrade license, or once for a yearly Cloud subscription, or once for a few months if I only need for it a few months? Am I really going to be worse off by paying a subscription fee?

Jeremy

[Aindreas Gallagher]

[Jeremy Garchow] “I pay Adobe once for a perpetual upgrade license, or once for a yearly Cloud subscription, or once for a few months if I only need for it a few months?”

as long as there is that choice – then all is fine.

[Jeremy Garchow] “Am I really going to be worse off by paying a subscription fee? “

yes jeremy, I would argue, in the long run, you are. And if they get the majority of the customer base on subscription – I don’t personally feel that is an ideal outcome.

https://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics

[Herb Sevush]

[Jeremy Garchow] “but we can probably put down the conspiracies/foil hats and realize that this is a new way of thinking about paying for software, and when you really look at it, ti’s not much different than what you do on a regular basis when you pay for other services.”

I agree, there’s no conspiracy, it’s just business and I’m just trying to make the right business decision for me, and to whatever extent I have any say in the matter I am going to push for as many different options as possible. In the end I might try the Cloud, but even if I do I would hope that Adobe still made provision for perpetual licensing.

[Jeremy Garchow] ” Even different cameras require different workflows, they have different menus, they have different color science. It’s not as easy as just switching it on and hitting record. There are intricacies to both.”

Which is why some DPs choose to buy a perpetual camera license.

[Jeremy Garchow] “How bad is it going to be if I pay Adobe once for a perpetual upgrade license, or once for a yearly Cloud subscription, or once for a few months if I only need for it a few months? Am I really going to be worse off by paying a subscription fee? “

The answer to your final question will become obvious in a few years, which is why making that decision now makes me nervous.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf

[Jeremy Garchow]

[Aindreas Gallagher] “yes jeremy, I would argue, in the long run, you are. And if they get the majority of the customer base on subscription – I don’t personally feel that is an ideal outcome.”

And why? Becuase you have to pay to open a project if the subscription is out?

Ok. I don’t feel it’s going to personally get in my way, but for the sake of argument, what if we look at it from Adobe’s perspective.

What if this new revenue structure allows them to produce better products in a more timely manner. Isn’t that better for us?

[Aindreas Gallagher]

[Jeremy Garchow] “What if this new revenue structure allows them to produce better products”

what is the basis for that.

I don’t want to sound heavy handed here – but you do realise that asking me to buy something, selling me wares – ie an upgrade, is a different incentive structure for the seller than having me continuously on a rental subscription. You do get that one of them is a stronger incentivising motive for the seller right?

Also there is the issue with subscription lock in – if you chose to cancel on a year – you can look forward to paying a half year penalty. Its like a really bad gym contract that way.

also there is the issue that if you transition at any point to other software, it won’t be like keeping FCP in reserve, where it was a purchase and we can boot it up without thinking for a very long time. Adobe get paid everytime we want to boot the suite up.

If I’m being honest I’m almost mind boggled that people can’t or won’t see the variety of downsides to the proposition – particularly some of the potential downsides that won’t really shake out for a few years.

https://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics