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Just Business…
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[Walter Soyka] “Andy, I’m not sure I understand the reasoning behind your hypothetical question, or what you’re getting at by asking it.
Is the question about using Apple products at the exclusion of others? My shop uses a mix of software, mainly Adobe, on both Macs and PCs. We use Premiere over FCPX nearly all of the time.”
I think you read my comments wrong or I worded them wrong. Either way it is no big deal but perhaps this time I can get my point across better. It is great that where you work it is cross platform shop and uses a mix of NLE. I do see places where they want the editors to know both Mac and PC. Shouldn’t college be a place to learn both platforms? Scott says absolutely not to cross platform. No PCs please. I asked if you had to teach a college course what would you do if there was something 99% like FCPX but it was free and cross platform? Wouldn’t that be a better option for the students then FCPX? I was not asking about where you work. Having said that stating that where you work it is cross platform and uses Premiere and FCPX both helps prove both my points although not to you obviously.
[Walter Soyka] “Is the question about the price of software? I think that development costs money, so software should cost money. I hope to be here for a while, and I want the development industry that my business relies on to be healthy so that it can support me. I wonder if Apple and BMD have depressed the value of the tools we use, and what that means for media tool makers in the long term. There needs to be enough margin there to foster real competition.”
I was not asking you if you think free software will cause BMD to go bankrupt. I am asking if a Program like FCPX was released by BMD and it was cross platform and free would that not be a better option for the students than FCPX? I am not asking if you think BMD would financial survive as a company giving out free software. My questions are about the best solution for teaching students the editing process not what is best for BMD or Apple.
[Walter Soyka] “Would I “buy FCPX for $300.00 knowing BMD offered the exact same thing for free?” In my experience, there are no two major software products in our market that are the exact same thing. I mind my expenses, but I’m also willing to pay for the products I want.”
My question is not about you and the software you use. It is a hypothetical question for teaching students how to edit.
[Walter Soyka] “That said, I’d actually be really interested to see a an FCPX work-alike on the market. It would mean that someone innovated around a bunch of Apple patents.”
FAST/Pinnacle/Avid had background rendering and GPU acceleration long before FCPX. Did the patent run out for Fast/Pinnacle/Avid? Perhaps it did.
[Walter Soyka] “Sorry if I misunderstood you before, but I can’t see how suggesting that someone take classroom time to teach three NLEs instead of one does not go to the question of what to teach and how to teach it.”
I was asking about what you would do if you had to teach editing classes. You stated you were taught both. Having said that having the option to take all three should be there. Not all students would take all three. If those three classes were added to the course catalogue it should make more money for the college.
What if someone had stated they taught editing classes (visual story telling) at college and only used Premiere Pro on PCs because Premiere on the PC is the best option for teaching the students editing. I think some people (FCPX & Avid editors) might have a few things to say about that. Wouldn’t you agree? I have a PC and Premiere Pro. I would like to think if I went to college today I would have the chance to learn as much as I could. As you stated earlier your shop is Mac and PC and uses a combination of NLE. I think colleges should offer as much but perhaps that’s just me.
[Walter Soyka] ” My shop uses a mix of software, mainly Adobe, on both Macs and PCs. We use Premiere over FCPX nearly all of the time.”
I am not saying Premiere is better than FCPX. I would think knowing them both and teaching them both might be a good idea.
I hope I explained things better this time or maybe worded them better. I think we may agree on many things.
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[andy patterson] “FAST/Pinnacle/Avid had background rendering and GPU acceleration long before FCPX. Did the patent run out for Fast/Pinnacle/Avid? Perhaps it did. “
Actually this isn’t true. Avid, at least Media Composer, hasn’t had much in the way of GPU acceleration and not background rendering. They have had background transcoding, but it’s not very useful. And patents aren’t written quite that simplistically. Two different companies could both have patented background rendering or GPU acceleration using different paths or processes.
Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
[andy patterson] “You should be able to teach all three unless you are only a part time instructor.”
Do YOU teach all 3?
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[andy patterson] “you could have answered my question the first time I asked it. Instead you compared a TV Station to a college. I found your reply kind of odd. None the less I responded to it. “
errr, what?
[andy patterson] “. Why not offer classes for Avid and Premiere Pro where you work and ask the students for their input? Perhaps their feedback could be useful. Perhaps they would say it was good to learn FCPX, Premiere and Avid.”
You’re just not getting it. Please go back and re-read my answers. Maybe that will help. Have a nice day.
Oh, I did find out that Berklee Online is offering an online class on FCPX, but I can’t find an online Avid or Premiere class! https://online.berklee.edu/brands/final-cut-pro
What a crappy school for doing that! ???? Kidding.
signing off….
Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter -
[Oliver Peters] “Actually this isn’t true. Avid, at least Media Composer, hasn’t had much in the way of GPU acceleration and not background rendering”
Fast had background rendering with the Silver, Red and Purple systems. Pinnacle bought out Fast Multi Media and called it Liquid Edition. Liquid Edition added GPU acceleration. Avid later bought out Pinnacle and killed Liquid Edition.
[Oliver Peters] “And patents aren’t written quite that simplistically. Two different companies could both have patented background rendering or GPU acceleration using different paths or processes.”
I would tend to agree. Edius had Ripple Edit before Apple’s magnetic timeline. Having said that Edius is not trackless. Adobe had great Metadata prior to FCPX. Keyword and Keyword collections were implemented in Adobe’s bridge long before the release of FCPX. So I wonder what patents anyone mimicking FCPX would have to pay to Apple. Walter Soyka had brought up the patent issues not me.
[Oliver Peters] “They have had background transcoding, but it’s not very useful.”
There was an article (maybe 2007) saying Avid couldn’t not implemented the features of Liquid into MC. I guess every NLE is different. Pinnacle was able to get Liquid to work with the Targa 3000 video capture card. I think it was called Liquid Chrome. Liquid Edition used Open GL. I know that.
That is why I wrote Fast/Pinnacle/Avid. I was not implying Avid’s Media Composer had background rendering or GPU acceleration first. Fast was just bought and sold a lot before being killed by Avid. I was stating who might have the patents if anyone. We know it is not Apple.
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[Tony West] “[andy patterson] “You should be able to teach all three unless you are only a part time instructor.”
Do YOU teach all 3?”
Interesting you would ask. I do not teach all three. I did teach Pinnacle Studio (not Pinnacle Liquid Edition) as part of a continuing education program at the community center. The course was for average people wanting to know how to edit home movies (DVDs). Pinnacle could work as software only or with their hardware for less than $100.00 to capture VHS and HI-8 tapes. Having said that if I was offered to teach full time at a college I would welcome the chance to teach all three. Why not? For the record I taught a basic computer repair class while I was teaching the video editing class.
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[andy patterson] “Do YOU teach all 3?”
Interesting you would ask.”
I was just curious if you were telling him how to do his job from personal experience of doing what you told him to do yourself, or from an assumption that you could do it better if you ever had the chance to do it in real life, instead of in your head.
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[Scott Witthaus] “Oh, I did find out that Berklee Online is offering an online class on FCPX, but I can’t find an online Avid or Premiere class! https://online.berklee.edu/brands/final-cut-pro“
Once again I find your response a little odd. Every college is going to do what is best for them. If a college stated we teach only Avid because Avid gave our college 20 MC licenses for free I could not blame them. FCPX does have a nice price. If you had stated we opted for FCPX because of the price I could relate.
[Scott Witthaus] ”
In my mind, X is a superior product for editorial and that is what I teach them.If some had stated “In my mind, Avid is a superior product for editorial and that is what I teach them”. You would probably comment by stating you think FCPX is a superior editor. Am I correct? You would probably state that FCPX has some good features and is worth knowing. I would agree that FCPX is worth knowing. See my point? Has anyone ever seen me state FCPX or Avid should not be taught? Has anyone ever seen me post that Premiere Pro is the best NLE? I am getting a sense that you feel only FCPX is worth knowing. If not you would probably want to teach an Avid class as well or have someone else teach it. Correct? If you had sated “our college only has the budget for iMacs and FCPX but I wish we could offer Avid and Premiere on the PC that would shine a different light on things. Below is your response to a school that teaches only Premiere Pro.
[Scott Witthaus] “[Claude Lyneis] ” The staff at our local film school all went PP after FC7 was abandoned and there is almost revulsion at the idea of X. ”
Faculty needs to do whats best for the visual storytelling, not their own hide in their own bias. I think if the faculty at your school gave each software equal play there might be a difference”
For the record I am saying the same thing to you as you did to Cluade. You think learning other software titles would be good for a school if Premiere Pro is the NLE of choice. Can you see how that is some what hypocritical?
[Scott Witthaus] “What a crappy school for doing that! ???? Kidding.”
Walter Soyka stated where he works they use Mac and PC as well as FCPX and Premiere Pro. Some places do want the editor to know both Mac and PC. Shouldn’t college be the place to learn both Mac and PC? When you only teach FCPX and have an all Mac platform it does limit the student learning potential. I am not saying if the school has a very tight budget and Apple gave them a better deal than HP that they shouldn’t opt for Apple. What I also noticed is that you are happy that your college is all Mac based. That is OK. Many people would prefer to know both. I now how to use a PC. If our community college only taught on PCs I would feel a little ripped off since I know how to use a PC. Every school is going to do it their way. Some will opt for both Mac and PC platforms while others will not. Some will teach Avid and Premiere Pro and others will not. I am not trying to imply your school is no good. In fact it is probably a great school. You are probably a great instructor but every instructor and every college will be different.
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[andy patterson] “What if someone had stated they taught editing classes (visual story telling) at college and only used Premiere Pro on PCs because Premiere on the PC is the best option for teaching the students editing. I think some people (FCPX & Avid editors) might have a few things to say about that. Wouldn’t you agree? I have a PC and Premiere Pro. I would like to think if I went to college today I would have the chance to learn as much as I could. “
Andy, I get what you’re saying. But I think that this is a place where reasonable minds can disagree. There’s a fill-in-the-blank there: “I would like to think if I went to college today I would have the chance to learn as much as I could about _____.”
There are a lot of statements you could fill in that blank, but there are only so many teaching hours in a course, or a curriculum, or a degree. You fill it in with “all three major NLEs,” and that makes a lot of sense. Others might fill it in with “the craft of editing” or “visual storytelling” and those make sense, too. Whatever you fill in there carries an opportunity cost; reaching any one of those goals requires lots of dedicated time at the exclusion of something else.
Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive | RenderBreak [blog] | Profile [LinkedIn] -
I have the pleasure of teaching FCPX and Premiere Pro and even better that I get to work with all three almost daily in Broadcast, Film and Corporate level.
I do my best to show the students the differences and commonalities.
Honestly in the last few years its 50/50 with Apple and Adobe as far as user traction.
The Avid users are mostly legacy owners that have passed it down the line.
I am sure its different in other parts of the country.
IMHO, FCPX users are up and running with their personal projects.
Now as far as negatives go, last night I had to show the Premiere Title Tool…nuff sed 😛
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