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Just Business…
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[Walter Soyka] “Whatever you fill in there carries an opportunity cost; reaching any one of those goals requires lots of dedicated time at the exclusion of something else.”
That’s why picking 1 and sticking with it is the right call. There are plenty of reasons to pick one or another, which is why editing programs do indeed pick one or another, but unless the explicit goal of the class is “learn every major button in every major NLE”, it’s a colossal waste of time to even launch a second one, much less try to teach it. Launching a third would be catastrophic. It would be the OPPOSITE of learning editing. It would grind the learning of editing to a halt.
NLEs come and go, so, honestly, the less time spent thinking about them, talking about them, evaluating them, the better. The one thing that history should have taught us this far is that our favorite NLE may not have been invented yet.
More important, contemporary notions of NLEs and editing are steps in a historical process that’s very much in motion. Much-loved boxes of FCP are sitting on shelves above much-loved Steenbecks, while the notion of a box of software has itself become a relic. There’s just no point in getting wrapped around the axle of massive teaching time devoted to this stuff in an EDITING class because they could ALL be made irrelevant by the thing that’s coming sooner than can be imagined.
Besides, the NLE is the easy part. It’s just buttons. Any reasonably-well motivated primate can figure out which buttons to push in short order.
The editing part of editing is harder, and stays relevant for much longer. THAT’s where teaching resources should be applied.
Before going all-in on the contrary view that it’d be better to present as many options and let the students decide for themselves, just for grins, try to find an editing program at any level that invests much energy in multiple NLEs. I’ve worked with scores of schools over the years, and I’ve yet to come across one. That’s not to say they don’t exist. It’s to say that most of the ones worth their salt don’t waste time on this.
It’s fine that WE do, though. What else are we gonna do with our days? ????
But we shouldn’t let our own amusement with this suggest that it’s in any way useful. I’d imagine that a thorough overview of the plusses and minuses of every major system would leave most kids thinking, “Wow, editing SUCKS.”
Which would be a shame, because they’d likely not have spent more than a few minutes editing, compared to months spent on monkey work. EXACTLY the kind of thing we need schools NOT doing to kids.
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Ultimately I agree that learning the art/craft is more important than learning a specific tool, but there is also a pragmatic element of putting students in the best position possible upon graduation. That’s largely a localized target to hit though because what’s applicable at Place A might not be applicable at Place B or D. For example, if a film school in LA only taught students on X then I think that would be disservice to the students because X use so is rare in LA (and I mean the county of Los Angeles, not just ‘hollywood’) and the competition for jobs (even entry level jobs) is so fierce (when its you vs 200+ other people for an entry level gig the people hiring are looking for anything they can to thin the herd).
This got me thinking to when I was in college and we didn’t have any talk/instruction during class aimed at a specific brand of gear. We talked about theory/concepts, got basic instruction on how to turn stuff on, set it up properly (white balance, zero out the board, hooking up a deck, etc.,), three point lighting, proper mic placement, etc., but it was all gear-agnostic. We had 2 or 3 different kinds of cameras in the Media Lab (this was of course before the days when students could easily own whatever they needed), lavs, shotguns, light kits, MC, FCP, linear editors (simple setup with 2 decks and a basic edit controller), and analog and ProTools mixing rooms.
We got our assignments (ex. do a soft news story about a local business owner) and then we’d meet again a week or two later to analysis and criticism. In the time between classes we were totally unsupervised so it was all up to us to find a story, shoot it and cut it. I remember learning how to use MC from a classmate and eventually teaching other classmates myself. We mainly used MC (FCP was v1 at that time) and I even had to do some linear editing when all the other bays were booked. I don’t think our instructor for the video production classes even knew how to turn the Avid on, but dude knew story like nobody’s business (and had a wall full of Emmy’s to prove it). The year after I graduated they added a bunch more editing bays (both MC and FCP) and a quick look on their site now shows that they have X, MC and PPro. At least these days you can pretty much run all three on a single machine where as back then that was a big no-go.
I’m not in Scott’s shoes so I’m not going to tell him what’s best for his situation, but at least in my experience being exposed to various editing gear didn’t hamper my ability to learn the art/craft of editing. Did I learn all the ins and outs of each system? No, that wouldn’t have been possible. What I did learn though was how to ingest media, perform edits, adjust audio, etc., and export media. Basically I knew just enough to get the edit done and not one iota more. haha!
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[Andrew Kimery] ” there is also a pragmatic element of putting students in the best position possible upon graduation. That’s largely a localized target to hit though “
For example, at USC, they teach Avid. That’s it. Full stop. No reference to any others. It would be a disservice.
That said, I don’t think there’s literally a single other place on the planet that has a target. None. Pick one. Any one. Have a reason.
For example, being honest, as bizarrely, freakishly, and absolutely at the extreme end of enthusiasm as I’ve been for X (demonstrably further out than Bill, Robin, or anyone else, from the very beginning), ME, I’d probably lean on Premiere, because I think every editor should be at least conversant with Photoshop and After Effects.
But the fact is that even in LA, not all the work is in TV and film. Certainly the assumption is that that IS the case if you’re making the cut to get into USC, but UCLA is a pretty good school, and I get the impression is a little more catholic (lower case c) on the matter. But even in LA, the Art Institutes lean on Adobe stuff (Pro Tools for audio though).
I’m going to once again defer to Scott and Oliver, though. Let’s not get too academic on how it SHOULD work when we have academics who can tell us how it DOES work. The numbers Scott cites for job placement are surely ones that any program anywhere would be proud of, and he’s all about the X — and clearly not doing a disservice to anyone in Virginia.
That said, I think you undermine the argument for “go broad” and support my own argument for “don’t overdo ANY of these” when you conclude:
[Andrew Kimery] “Basically I knew just enough to get the edit done and not one iota more. haha!
“So yeah, fair enough, I said name me a decent program trying to cover all the bases, and you did. But the process you describe that YOU went through is what I think the RIGHT one is, which is focus on one that’s at the core of the curriculum, and teach yourself the other stuff on the side. I mean, it’s not like the ONLY movies I watched were the ones I was assigned in film appreciation class, right? I didn’t just read assigned books. I followed my curiosity.
But here’s the thing. I didn’t learn ANY NLEs, because they wouldn’t exist for another decade after my schooling. ???? The idea of owning a camera was preposterous…but the standpoint of the program was, you’ll use U-matic because that’s what here. You’ll probably use something else later, like maybe that Betacam stuff we’re seeing…but who knows. Could be anything. You’ll leave here ready for anything, but not because you’ve used everything. Because you’ve learned how to learn one thing WELL. After that, learning anything else is trivial.
Even once NLEs entered academia, there was only one class of graduates in the 20th century who could have learned much about FCP, and nobody who graduated before 2011 would have learned anything about X. Yet here are all these folks using ’em just fine. I’m convinced that the people who adapted most quickly are people who are adaptable — a personality trait, not a byproduct of specific training.
To me, the ephemeral nature of software COULD point to the value of sticking to Media Composer and Premiere as the NLEs most likely to still be around (depending on your measure of the fullness or emptiness of Avid’s corporate glass). To ME, it’s the reason to focus only on teaching enough to get the edit done and not one iota more. ????
Heck, your career is the perfect argument for my point. At the end of the day, your whizziness with buttons in any one NLE was vastly less useful than the breadth of your knowledge about a whole lot of other things, including stuff well outside the range of editing, plus your resourcefulness (ie, NOT being so tied to one set of buttons that you couldn’t function everywhere you needed to), and your general spunk. ???? Buttons can be taught on the job. Spunk cannot. ????
Not to dismiss the value of buttons altogether. An AE who doesn’t show up the first day of work ready to log (for one example) really is worse than useless, even as an intern….but honestly, aren’t the most important things about logging STILL, 150 years later, as much related to managing physical assets and reel names as anything software-related?
To take it the next step further, the one thing that every student learns that I can absolutely guarantee with one million percent certainty will at some point be obsolete, irrelevant, and potentially an obstacle to learning what they really NEED to be learning next is their NLE software. All the rest — lights, camera, action — will be useful forever.
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[Tony West] “I was just curious if you were telling him how to do his job from personal experience of doing what you told him to do yourself, or from an assumption that you could do it better if you ever had the chance to do it in real life, instead of in your head.”
I would not mind if someone critiqued me and stated they knew of another software/hardware combo (in 2003) that was less expensive than what Pinnacle had at the time and would allow for capturing old VHS and HI-8 tapes. I had people 10-60 years of age in the video class an computer repair class. Some had their own hardware and software and I was able to get it all to work pretty easy. I stayed after class on my own dime many times. I love teaching the classes.
[Scott Witthaus] “[Claude Lyneis] ” The staff at our local film school all went PP after FC7 was abandoned and there is almost revulsion at the idea of X. ”
Faculty needs to do whats best for the visual storytelling, not their own hide in their own bias. I think if the faculty at your school gave each software equal play there might be a difference,”
His first comment on the subject implies that introducing students to different software titles might a be a benefit to the students. I tend to agree all though it may not be possible. Scott and I both agree if only Premiere Pro it being taught. On the other hand Scott thinks if FCPX is there NLE of choice then there is not a need to offer classes for other software titles. In other words Scott is kind of saying the “other school” should offer more than one NLE class but his “school” shouldn’t. Could that be seen as hypocritical to critic another school for doing the same thing? That is kind of my point.
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[Eric Santiago] “Now as far as negatives go, last night I had to show the Premiere Title Tool…nuff sed :P”
I like the titling tool in Premiere. You can create track mattes with it and really cool text and lower thirds. As far as I know FCPX does not have any drawing tools with their titling system. Can you elaborate on your comment a little more?
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[Walter Soyka] “There are a lot of statements you could fill in that blank, but there are only so many teaching hours in a course, or a curriculum, or a degree. You fill it in with “all three major NLEs,” and that makes a lot of sense. Others might fill it in with “the craft of editing” or “visual storytelling” and those make sense, too. Whatever you fill in there carries an opportunity cost; reaching any one of those goals requires lots of dedicated time at the exclusion of something else.”
I agree. I was just asking your opinion. Every college will have a different budget and different philosophy. I know some colleges do not have full studios with CCU, Character generator, Cameras, Switcher, Clearcom and Camplex system. It can be expensive to teach Radio, TV and film at the college level. Having said that I know some high schools that have full fledged TV studios.
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[Tim Wilson] “So yeah, fair enough, I said name me a decent program trying to cover all the bases, and you did. But the process you describe that YOU went through is what I think the RIGHT one is, which is focus on one that’s at the core of the curriculum, and teach yourself the other stuff on the side. I mean, it’s not like the ONLY movies I watched were the ones I was assigned in film appreciation class, right? I didn’t just read assigned books. I followed my curiosity.”
I think Andrew is saying the students that put a lot into the program will get a lot out. Not everyone would have to take all three classes for Avid, Premiere and FCPX. If you have an internship and find out they use Avid BAM! You are at college and your college offers Avid training. Having said that some college do have inept professors.
[Tim Wilson] “But here’s the thing. I didn’t learn ANY NLEs, because they wouldn’t exist for another decade after my schooling. ???? The idea of owning a camera was preposterous…but the standpoint of the program was, you’ll use U-matic because that’s what here. You’ll probably use something else later, like maybe that Betacam stuff we’re seeing…but who knows. Could be anything. You’ll leave here ready for anything, but not because you’ve used everything. Because you’ve learned how to learn one thing WELL. After that, learning anything else is trivial.”
U-matic 3/4″ and Beta are still both linear media so only knowing one is OK. If you can edit 3/4′ you can edit Beta as well. Kind of like SD and Memory Stick. I went to college prior to the NLE days and I loved learning the hardware, switcher CCU, CG.
I think there are people who will figure things out on their own and then there are those that must be taught. I think that is a key point to make.
I have seen some interesting comments from everyone.
Here is a flashback for some of you.
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[andy patterson] “I stayed after class on my own dime many times. I love teaching the classes.”
That’s cool.
Maybe you could teach all three on your own dime and report back here how it went.
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[Tim Wilson] “That said, I don’t think there’s literally a single other place on the planet that has a target. None. Pick one. Any one. Have a reason.”
I’d say NYC probably mirrors LA. ???? Low hanging fruit, I know.
[Tim Wilson] “But the fact is that even in LA, not all the work is in TV and film.”
It’s not, though in my first hand experiences, plus what I see from job postings (StaffMeUp, FilmAndTV Pro, Mandy, EntertainmentCareers, Media Match, Craigslist, various FB groups, etc.,), it doesn’t seem to matter if you are doing movies, broadcast, cable, web/digital, corporate, commercials/trailers/promos, big budget, little budget… 99% of the gigs I’ve come across are either Avid or Premiere. I think Premiere has officially picked up where FCP Legend left off.
[Tim Wilson] “and your general spunk. ???? Buttons can be taught on the job. Spunk cannot. ????”
Thanks, Tim. I do pride myself on being tenacious. 🙂
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I agree with every single word of Tim’s comment.
I just got back from visiting the most renowned film school in Spain where each year 1800 students from Spain and from all over the world get their Masters Degree in Film&Television. The school only teaches Final Cut Pro X for editing, and nothing else.
When I asked the Head of Post-Production why, he said (quote): “Because our students find it very easy to learn. So we don’t have to spend much time explaining buttons and menus, and we can focus on what’s really important: teaching them the art of editing. Once they master this, they can easily learn any other NLE if their job would require this in the future. Furthermore, all of the (over 100) tv and movie production companies associated with the school use FCP X. This makes it easy for us to get our graduation students internships at these companies. And most of these internships lead to them getting a first job.”
When I asked about other software he said: we do teach Adobe software such as InDesign, Photoshop and AE, but not Premiere. We also teach Resolve for grading, and ProTools for audio. But we don’t train Audio Engineers and our film students find ProTools too convoluted, so we will move to Logic next year.
I have visited a lot of national film schools in the past years, and this is without a doubt one of the most impressive ones. With state-of-the-art studios, editing rooms and classrooms located in an beautiful modern building right in the old heart of Barcelona, the school is sponsored by the largest media corporations in Spain and has delivered some of the biggest names in Spanish film and television production. And an interesting fact: 60% of the current students are women. The times are-a-changing. Welcome to the real world (-:
– Ronny
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