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Just Business…
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[Scott Witthaus] “[andy patterson] “Your feelings for FCPX are irrelevant.”
Well, no. Since I create the curriculum it is very relevant.”
Your feelings are irrelevant. If your school is not teaching Premiere and Avid the students are not getting the best education. You may not like Avid and Premiere Pro but many do. My second point is not everyone owns a Apple computer.
[Scott Witthaus] ”
[andy patterson] “Premiere, Avid and AE are out there.”Sigh. See my previous posts. Lynda.com is out there for them.”
Then why teach FCPX? Why not just have them go to Lynda.com for FCPX training? As I stated people may have questions beyond Linda.com. Isn’t that why you have a job?
[Scott Witthaus] “[andy patterson] “In fact I know of a TV station in Chicago that uses Edius. Oprah Winfrey’s own Harpo productions used to use Edius as well (they still might).”
We are not doing 1:15 news packages or long form broadcast. Note my posts above. Would you say that the Edius station is doing it’s editors a disservice by using such a niche product?”
Don’t confuse the purpose of a TV station with a school that has a purpose to educate students. The TV station’s purpose is to bring the news not educate students.
[Scott Witthaus] “[andy patterson] “I could see only teaching FCPX if FCPX was the only NLE being used in a professionals environment but that is not the case. ”
Note my posts above, please. I am not teaching kids to go out and local news or broadcast.”
I never stated you were. Do all your students own an Apple computer?
[Scott Witthaus] “[andy patterson] “The answer to those questions is what I really want to know.”
One more time….I am teaching the craft of visual storytelling not “learn this system(s) so you can get a news gig”. At the end of a project, I want a story based on a strong concept, shot and posted properly. They can use iMovie for all I care. It’s about the end result and less about what tool they use to cut it. To assist my students to get to that result, I teach X. I have always said that I can teach ANYBODY how to operate a software. Talented storytellers are not that easy to find. I am trying to get technology out of the way of the storytelling process.”
I asked if Blackmagic Design had a free program identical to FCPX that worked on Mac and PC both would you drop FCPX in favor of Blackmagic? You never answered that. You went on to talk about story telling. Couldn’t you teach the art of story telling using the Blackmagic Design NLE if it mimicked FCPX 100%?
$300.00 for FCPX is nice but it is not as good as free. Also FCPX is not cross platform.
The fact that you could not respond by saying “if BMD had a NLE that mimicked FCPX for free and worked on Mac and PC I would opt to teach that instead of FCPX. The reason I would opt for BMD over FCPX is the price and it is cross platform. It would be more beneficial to the students”.
You gave responses to some things that were statements I made and not actual questions. On the other hand you did not answer the actual question I asked. I find that very odd. Even though you did not answer my question directly I did find out what I wanted to know. So having said that thank you for your response.
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[andy patterson] “If your school is not teaching Premiere and Avid the students are not getting the best education. You may not like Avid and Premiere Pro but many do.”
There are two distinct ways to look at this: one values theory, one values practice.
Scott falls on the theory side. The actual practice of driving an NLE is immaterial for his approach. The less time he can spend teaching how to use an NLE, the more time he can spend teaching how to craft a story through editorial. That is a very real and valuable skill.
A practical education would concern itself more with the mechanics of editing, and thus necessarily less on crafting a story. Those skills are real and valuable, too, but they are different, and one approach is not necessarily better than another.
Personally, I chose my school because they although they taught both, they generally valued theory over practice. I thought it was more important to learn why to make a cut than how to do it. Perhaps you would prefer the other way, and that’s fine — there are plenty of places to learn that way, too — but I think Scott’s class sounds pretty appealing.
Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive | RenderBreak [blog] | Profile [LinkedIn] -
[andy patterson] “Do all your students own an Apple computer?
“Yes. It’s strongly suggested. I have seen about 3 PC’s in 9 years. Much like Full Sail requires a Mac for some programs, we strongly suggest that too. Our graduate program is Mac based.
[andy patterson] “$300.00 for FCPX is nice but it is not as good as free. Also FCPX is not cross platform. “
$199 for the package of software is pretty damn spiffy. Cross-platform? See above.
[andy patterson] “The fact that you could not respond by saying “if BMD had a NLE that mimicked FCPX for free and worked on Mac and PC I would opt to teach that instead of FCPX. “
Ok, ok, I’ll answer a question that is not based in any facts, or alternative facts. BMD and Resolve are not as good, at the present time, than most of the other leading NLE’s out there. However, if I ever feel that a future version of Resolve might benefit my students in their craft I would investigate it. But right now, it’s a non-issue. But I do keep an eye on things. I went to the Adobe Max conference in November and I, like a couple on this list, am in the Avid Ambassadors group. Trust me, I keep an eye on things that will be help my students.
[andy patterson] ” If your school is not teaching Premiere and Avid the students are not getting the best education. “
sigh.
[andy patterson] “Then why teach FCPX? “
As stated before, it’s the best and easiest software to teach the craft, in my humble opine.
[andy patterson] “Isn’t that why you have a job?”
yup. And since I have used and made money on all three, I can answer those questions.
Andy, you’re not a fan of X. Totally cool. I am. Totally cool. But I know what I am teaching and am comfortable in what and how I teach. I have my student’s best interest in mind for the industries they enter. Student reviews are generally excellent. Our students have a 97% placement rate at 6 months after graduation. I am ok with that. For more info, go here: https://www.brandcenter.vcu.edu/
Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter -
[Scott Witthaus] “Much like Full Sail requires a Mac for some programs, we strongly suggest that too. “
Actually, Full Sail provides (not requires) MacBook Pros, which are covered via their tuition. They are required to use the gear provided. Each laptop comes with a pre-installed software bundle that is specific to the part of the college they are in. Depending on department or degree, this includes FCPX, Media Composer, Pro Tools and/or Adobe Creative Cloud. In the Digital Cinematography online program, this also extends to a small camera package.
Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
[Walter Soyka] “Scott falls on the theory side. The actual practice of driving an NLE is immaterial for his approach. The less time he can spend teaching how to use an NLE, the more time he can spend teaching how to craft a story through editorial. That is a very real and valuable skill.”
Keep in mind I added a hypothetical to the equation. Why not teach a program that is cross platform and free? If Blackmagic had a NLE that mimicked FCPX 100% why not use that instead? That is the real question I asked. It was never answered. I stated the school should offer the options. Scott would not have to teach them. It would be up to the student to opt take all 3 (FCPX, Avid and Premiere). He stated they can go to Linda.com.
[Walter Soyka] “A practical education would concern itself more with the mechanics of editing, and thus necessarily less on crafting a story. Those skills are real and valuable, too, but they are different, and one approach is not necessarily better than another.”
This doesn’t really answer my question nor am I arguing with you. You nor Scott have told me anything new. I just wanted Scott to answer my hypothetical question. He did stated he could teach using iMovie. IMovie is Apple only.
[Walter Soyka] “Personally, I chose my school because they although they taught both, they generally valued theory over practice. I thought it was more important to learn why to make a cut than how to do it. Perhaps you would prefer the other way, and that’s fine — there are plenty of places to learn that way, too — but I think Scott’s class sounds pretty appealing.”
No argument but this is really just another strawman. I have not once talked about teaching methods or what I prefer. You just stated you like the fact that your school taught both programs and they valued theory over practice. You are helping to prove my point because your school taught both.
All ask you the same question. If BMD had a NLE that mimicked FCP X 100% for free and is was cross platform would it be wise to offer that as an option to the students? If the school could only teach one program and BMD’s NLE had 50% of the market and it is free would you say it might be the better option instead of FCPX? Keep in mind all the students could download it to their computer. Would some of you still buy FCPX for $300.00 knowing BMD offered the exact same thing for free? That is what needs to be addressed not teaching methods or what type of education I prefer.
Let me put it to you like this. If FCPX was discontinued today. Would Scott opt for Premiere, Avid, Edius, Resolve or iMovie. That is kind of my point. I think some people are 100% dedicated to Apple products. I am not saying Scott is at this point. I’ll say this. I would not mind teaching FCPX on a Mac Pro or iMac. I wouldn’t mind teaching iMovie. Would any FCPX users want to teach Premiere Pro on a PC? Would some of you feel as though you can tech the art of editing with an iMac and iMovie but not a PC and Premiere Pro?
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[Scott Witthaus] “[andy patterson] “Do all your students own an Apple computer?
”Yes. It’s strongly suggested. I have seen about 3 PC’s in 9 years. Much like Full Sail requires a Mac for some programs, we strongly suggest that too. Our graduate program is Mac based.”
Are you saying you could teach the art of editing using an iMac and iMovie but it would be impossible to do that using a PC and Premiere Pro. That is awfully nice of the school to force Apple products on you. What if the school forced you to buy a PC?
[Scott Witthaus] “[andy patterson] “$300.00 for FCPX is nice but it is not as good as free. Also FCPX is not cross platform. ”
$199 for the package of software is pretty damn spiffy. Cross-platform? See above.”
It is still a lot more money than free.
[Scott Witthaus] “[andy patterson] “Then why teach FCPX? ”
As stated before, it’s the best and easiest software to teach the craft, in my humble opine.”
In your humble opinion you probably think the Mac Pro is better than a PC workstation. Am I correct?
[Scott Witthaus] “[andy patterson] “Isn’t that why you have a job?”
yup. And since I have used and made money on all three, I can answer those questions.”
Many people can answer the same question and give a different answer.
[Scott Witthaus] “Andy, you’re not a fan of X. Totally cool. I am. Totally cool. But I know what I am teaching and am comfortable in what and how I teach. I have my student’s best interest in mind for the industries they enter. Student reviews are generally excellent. Our students have a 97% placement rate at 6 months after graduation. I am ok with that. For more info, go here: https://www.brandcenter.vcu.edu/“
Actually your comment is incorrect. I have stated FCPX is a good program many times. I just think Premiere Pro, AE and Cinema 4-D can work well together. AE has some cool features. Having said that I would not have a problem teaching FCPX or iMovie. Avid, FCPX, Resolve and Premiere Pro all work. If you were told you had to teach Premiere Pro next semester on a PC would you welcome it or hate it?
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Andy, am sure everyone is getting tired of our back and forth (I know I am), so let me just finish by saying yet again that while I appreciate your point of view and your passion on the subject, I am very comfortable what I teach and how I teach it. Right now, X is part of that process. If another tool came to market (that can work in our infrastructure) that might better help our students in storytelling, I would research and consider it. Again, I don’t teach a “how to use the buttons to make an edit to get a job” class. And I don’t “hate” Premiere, rather I think it’s not the best tool (at this time) for my students . Maybe that changes in the future. If Apple suddenly gave up on X, I would be totally comfortable teaching Premiere or MC to get the desired results for my students.
Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter -
[andy patterson] “All ask you the same question. If BMD had a NLE that mimicked FCP X 100% for free and is was cross platform would it be wise to offer that as an option to the students? If the school could only teach one program and BMD’s NLE had 50% of the market and it is free would you say it might be the better option instead of FCPX? Keep in mind all the students could download it to their computer. Would some of you still buy FCPX for $300.00 knowing BMD offered the exact same thing for free? That is what needs to be addressed not teaching methods or what type of education I prefer. “
Andy, I’m not sure I understand the reasoning behind your hypothetical question, or what you’re getting at by asking it.
Is the question about using Apple products at the exclusion of others? My shop uses a mix of software, mainly Adobe, on both Macs and PCs. We use Premiere over FCPX nearly all of the time.
Is the question about the price of software? I think that development costs money, so software should cost money. I hope to be here for a while, and I want the development industry that my business relies on to be healthy so that it can support me. I wonder if Apple and BMD have depressed the value of the tools we use, and what that means for media tool makers in the long term. There needs to be enough margin there to foster real competition.
Would I “buy FCPX for $300.00 knowing BMD offered the exact same thing for free?” In my experience, there are no two major software products in our market that are the exact same thing. I mind my expenses, but I’m also willing to pay for the products I want. That said, I’d actually be really interested to see a an FCPX work-alike on the market. It would mean that someone innovated around a bunch of Apple patents.
Sorry if I misunderstood you before, but I can’t see how suggesting that someone take classroom time to teach three NLEs instead of one does not go to the question of what to teach and how to teach it.
Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive | RenderBreak [blog] | Profile [LinkedIn] -
[Brett Sherman] “If FCP X allows you to get to the craft quicker, then that’s what it should be.”
There are people that use both and would say it is personal choice.
[Brett Sherman] “There is a lot of thought that has to go into curriculum development. If one of the students really excels with FCP X and decides to make a career of editing, I have no doubt they will easily be able to switch to another editing program as the need arises. They will be richer for having spent more time thinking about the craft of editing.”
They would be able to switch but they would not be as proficient as someone who trained and knew about the integration of Premiere, AE and Cinema 4D. Same would be true for Avid. Someone who knew all three would be better off. Once again I am not saying the students would have to learn all three but the option should be there. Let me state it this way. I would consider it odd to only see Premiere Pro being taught. That might help clear things up. I am not saying the college is no good or that that they do not have a high percent of people in the workforce. It would also be good to know both Mac and PC platforms. I have seen jobs posted for Premiere and Avid where they want you to know both platforms. I admit it may not be the majority but I would like to think a college education would allow for experience on both platforms.
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[Scott Witthaus] “Andy, am sure everyone is getting tired of our back and forth (I know I am), so let me just finish by saying yet again that while I appreciate your point of view and your passion on the subject, I am very comfortable what I teach and how I teach it.”
Who would you blame for that? You could have answered my question the first time I asked it. Instead you compared a TV Station to a college. I found your reply kind of odd. None the less I responded to it.
[Scott Witthaus] ” And I don’t “hate” Premiere, rather I think it’s not the best tool (at this time) for my students”
For the record I say negative things about Adobe all the time. In fact I tell people that own a Mac FCPX might be your best bet. I have no problem saying it. I know the price of FCPX is nice but some Mac users still prefer Avid and Premiere Pro over FCPX. I should also state that if only Premiere Pro was taught I would find that odd as well. Why not offer classes for Avid and Premiere Pro where you work and ask the students for their input? Perhaps their feedback could be useful. Perhaps they would say it was good to learn FCPX, Premiere and Avid. A student might say they like the magnetic timeline of FCXP but they may also tell you they like the customization of Premiere Pro’s GUI better than FCPX’s GUI.
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