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Is this why the new Mac Pro has been taking so long?
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[Andrew Kimery] “you’ll certainly run into those that vehemently prefer PCs (or as they are known in gaming circles, The Glorious PC Gaming Master Race ;)).”
That’s more refering to their preference of a desktop over a console. There’s a difference between those guys and the dedicated Mac users though in that the “PC Master Race” tend to really know their computers. They’re usually rabid about building their own kit and know their machines back to front so their preference for a PC is an educated choice. The same can not generally be said of the dedicated Mac user. Macs are just better and it begins and ends there. I was having to use a mac the other day and I enquired of it’s dedicated Mac only owner how much free storage it had before I dumped a load of files on it and got the reply “I don’t know, I bought the most expensive one”.***
Obviously there are a lot of savvy folks here who needs Macs because of the maccentric software they run but that’s a small part of the Apple business. The cult of mac that Andy’s refering to is a different beast altogether and they’re everywhere and they are spending a fortune on hardware they don’t understand or need and could save thousands on a better machine if they put the marketing to one side. I find it a fascinating trend myself and marketing guruswill no doubt be studying it still hundreds of years down the line.
***Worryingly it was an i3 but she was convinced she had bought the most expensive Mac available. Ever since I’ve been haunted by the possibility that she dropped $5,000 on a Mac and they sent her the wrong one and she never knew…
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[Dominic Deacon] “I was having to use a mac the other day and I enquired of it’s dedicated Mac only owner how much free storage it had before I dumped a load of files on it and got the reply “I don’t know, I bought the most expensive one””
You would have received the same answer if that person had bought a PC.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
[Tony West] ” It’s not a nuisance for me. People consider it “a bit of a standard” because they get asked to deliver that so often. Which was my point. So, I guess we kind of agree?”
No its a nuisance because unlike DNx codecs it is proprietary and can’t be easily used on all platforms and NLE software. And not everyone wants it as a deliverable. I have noticed recently that broadcasters are asking first for AVC Intra codecs wrapped as .mxf. ProRes is down the list so I guess they are shifting away from Mac hardware and software too which is pertinent to this thread.
So I agree that it became a defacto standard but I am seeing a trend away from ProRes and QT wrapping.
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[Ronny Courtens] “And most Apple users haven’t done anything like this. I think the vast majority of people using Apple computers are quite happy with what Apple has to offer these days, and I don’t see the MacPro as something this vast majority uses or even needs. Not even those of us working in television or film production.”
I agree Apple could release a new laptop with an old Pentium 4 and call it The Retro and some people would still buy it.
[Ronny Courtens] “A year ago a friend who works at a large tv production company asked if they could have a few MacPros to try out because they were planning to buy 42 new computers to use with FCP X. They tested them for a few weeks and they decided to buy 42 maxed out iMacs instead because the price difference did not justify the performance gains. And these guys need performant hardware because they produce long-form television programs that often involve heavy 4K multicam projects that they want to edit natively. I spoke again with my friend not so long ago. He told me that since their purchase they have been delivering 200 hours of on-air content with the iMacs without any problems. So it seems to me like Apple’s current product line is more than powerful enough to handle even the most demanding editing tasks.”
No one stated they could not. Do you want to watch 4K ,6K and 8K at full resolution or draft quality?
[Ronny Courtens] “But I do agree that some people who work in specific niches in our business (VFX, 3D, VR etc…) would like to see more CPU and GPU power than the current MacPro can offer. If Apple does come up with an improved MacPro, good for them. If Apple does not produce a more powerful MacPro, I think those people may rightfully decide to switch to another platform.”
That is my point : )
[Ronny Courtens] “The question is: is this really important? Because I already see quite some companies who happily use Macs for media management, editing and delivery alongside with Linux computers for VFX work or PCs for VR stitching (most stitching applications are Windows-only anyway).”
For some a laptop will work.
[Ronny Courtens] “As an example: another friend of mine is currently editing a 10 million Euro drama tv series for Spanish television. The show is cut on FCP X using 4 iMacs, VFX is done in-house with Mistika on a PC, audio is also done in-house running ProTools on an old MacPro, and all systems are happily connected with each other over a 100TB LumaForge Tower. Even if Apple releases a more powerful MacPro today, this won’t matter to them at all. So where is the problem?”
Where is the problem? I thought you already answered your own Question. As you stated everyone has different needs. For them it is not a problem nor did I ever state or imply everyone is edit 8k R3D video files. I stated Apple should have more options. Having said that I know they will not offer them.
[Ronny Courtens] “Just use what you think is the most efficient hardware available for the specific work you need to do today, because we all know that tomorrow things may be completely different. At least, that’s one thing I learned from being in this business for the past 38 years.”
I agree but it would not hurt any Apple user to have the option of dual CPUs and Nvidia and AMD/ATI. That is my point. I am not saying the Apple computers do not work I am saying there should be more options.
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[Oliver Peters] “Andy, as far as the iPad/Surface comparison, you must be seeing a small sliver of the market. Surface is a cool product and so is the larger desktop model. Yet, the only creatives I know who are using them are those that were given them by their company to use. Most Surface users I see are using it as a smaller laptop.”
You can find Youtube video where Apple users state the iPad runs iOS but the Surface Pro runs Windows 10 64 bit. The Surface Pro allows people to draw on the Surface Pro with the Adobe programs. The Surface Studio brings it to a whole new level of interaction. By not making OS X touch screen compatible Apple is losing out.
[Oliver Peters] “Apple rightly or wrongly has decided to target the iPad as first and foremost a consumption device and not a reduction of the laptop, yet with enough power and features to support other needs.”
That is the problem. Without an i7 and OS X the iPad cannot meet the needs of many creative professionals.
[Oliver Peters] “When I travel, unless I need my MBP for editing on-site, I only travel with the iPad and sometimes an external keyboard. It fits my needs just fine.”
With the Surface Pro you only need one device. You are actually proving my point.
[Oliver Peters] ” Whether or not Apple will evolve the pro into a different type of product is something we’ll see in the future.”
Why would a PC user switch to an inferior product?
[Oliver Peters] “In my original reply, I commented on SGI and Cray, not because these were high-end machines, but because they were high-end machines that the market could no longer support. In the end, Apple is there to make money. Investing in the R&D for a super-duper machine that attracts .01 % of the market simply isn’t good business and doesn’t serve the larger set of users.”
I want everyone to know I am fully aware that Apple makes money in the consumer market. That is what allows me to make my criticisms. Apple is not about making the best product for the consumer. They want to make products that make the most profits. Most Generic ATX computers have a 5%-10% profit margin. It would be good for the consumer for Apple to offer them but bad for Apple’s profit margins. I know the game well.
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[andy patterson] “By not making OS X touch screen compatible Apple is losing out. “
I’m not sure the numbers bear that out. Yes, iPad sales aren’t increasing, but they still beat other tablets.
[andy patterson] “Without an i7 and OS X the iPad cannot meet the needs of many creative professionals.”
I don’t see many creatives clamoring to use a tablet as their main computer. So it’s really a non-issue.
[andy patterson] “With the Surface Pro you only need one device.”
Baloney. You’re the guy arguing for a hot-rodded machine to do RED Raw at 8K natively in real-time. Not exactly in the Surface’s wheelhouse. So a single machine doesn’t actually serve all the needs.
[andy patterson] “You are actually proving my point. “
How do you figure that? I use the iPad when traveling in the case that I didn’t need to edit on-site. It’s a purpose-designed device and I use it accordingly.
[andy patterson] “Why would a PC user switch to an inferior product? “
Again, we’re talking about iPads. So it just seems like you don’t understand its market.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
[Oliver Peters] “[andy patterson] “By not making OS X touch screen compatible Apple is losing out. ”
I’m not sure the numbers bear that out. Yes, iPad sales aren’t increasing, but they still beat other tablets.”
People are becoming hip to what the Surface Pro has to offer. Especially the Surface Studio. The Surface Studio will drop in price and get even better.
[Oliver Peters] “[andy patterson] “Without an i7 and OS X the iPad cannot meet the needs of many creative professionals.”
I don’t see many creatives clamoring to use a tablet as their main computer. So it’s really a non-issue.”
I think you are kind of stuck on video editors. People that use Photoshop and Illustrator user the Surface Pro to draw on. The Surface Studio is even better. I remember when the iPad launched and they showed people using the iPad as a sketch pad. Many people do the same thing with the Surface Pro. That is why MS made the Surface Studio to make the interaction even better.
[Oliver Peters] “[andy patterson] “With the Surface Pro you only need one device.”
Baloney. You’re the guy arguing for a hot-rodded machine to do RED Raw at 8K natively in real-time. Not exactly in the Surface’s wheelhouse. So a single machine doesn’t actually serve all the needs.”
You had stated at times you had to chose between your iPad and Macbook. You left that part out of the quote. With the Surface Pro you have one device that can work as a laptop or a tablet. No need to but two products. You can edit 4K using the Surface Pro. You will not see it playback at full resolution. That is why having a beefy system is still needed by a select few. Keep in mind I stated for many people a laptop will work OK. You forgot to mention that. It should not be hard to comprehend that everyone will have different editing needs and Apple should offer solutions to meet those needs. I stand by that statement but I never stated everyone needs to edit 8K R3D files. Try to comprehend what I am actually saying instead of what you think I am saying.
[Oliver Peters] “[andy patterson] “You are actually proving my point. ”
How do you figure that? I use the iPad when traveling in the case that I didn’t need to edit on-site. It’s a purpose-designed device and I use it accordingly.”
Once again you left out the part about choosing between the iPad and Macbook. With the Surface Studio you only need one device. You can use it as a tablet if you use the Metro GUI or you can use it a laptop if you have a keyboard connected. The iPad cannot function in two different modes and does not support a desktop OS. You do realize the Surface Pro uses Windows 10 64 bit don’t you?
[Oliver Peters] “[andy patterson] “Why would a PC user switch to an inferior product? ”
Again, we’re talking about iPads. So it just seems like you don’t understand its market.”
There is not a market for the iPad anymore other than loyal Apple customers buying it. As I stated people do use the Surface Studio as a sketch pad for Illustrator. Why would the creative professionals that use Adobe’s CC opt for an iPad over the Surface Pro? Illustrator does not work on the iPad. Let me put it to you like this. What if the Surface Pro used a 32 bit Cellphone CPU from 3 years ago and also ran a 32 bit OS. Then you might have to say I use my Dell laptop for some things and my Surface Pro for other things. Don’t get me wrong. In another two years Apple will either have iOS on all their devices or OS X on all their devices. Some Apple users talk about the great integration between iOS and OS X. Why bother? On the Windows side there is simply one OS that does it all. Does it kind of make sense now?
I know of several Apple users who still have an iMac but opted for the Surface Studio over the iPad Pro. Even Leo Laporte who once was a big Apple loyalist loved the Surface Studio and even stated there is no need to opt for an iPad over the MS Surface Pro. Many people have criticized Apple about the iPad still using a mobile OS. Leo even said Windows 10 is awesome. Many people think MS is doing a better job at giving graphic designers a more useful product than Apple. If you don’t want to believe me you don’t have to. I am just telling you like it is. Having said that please explain to me why an Apple iPad Pro would be a better option than a MS Surface Pro?
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[andy patterson] “People are becoming hip to what the Surface Pro has to offer. Especially the Surface Studio”
The Surface Pro and Studio have completely different objectives. Just because they have touch in common doesn’t mean they are simple variations of the same product.
[andy patterson] “I think you are kind of stuck on video editors.”
Not at all. I actually see very few folks with iPads or Surfaces. The ones with Surfaces (which also includes my daughter) are largely using them as a lighter laptop. Professionally these include ad agency creatives. Sure, drawing may be part of it, but not for much other than doodling on glass instead of paper.
[andy patterson] “You had stated at times you had to chose between your iPad and Macbook. You left that part out of the quote. With the Surface Pro you have one device that can work as a laptop or a tablet. No need to but two products. “
That’s because it’s irrelevant. I want two different products because they service different purposes. The iPad is light to travel with (lighter and less cumbersome than the Surface) and does what I need. If I need to edit, then I bring the laptop. The alternative option for me might have been the small MacBook, but then that would be more challenged for editing.
[andy patterson] ” You can edit 4K using the Surface Pro. You will not see it playback at full resolution. That is why having a beefy system is still needed by a select few”
I can edit 4K on my MacBook Pro AND see it at full resolution. Plus I can connect USB3 and Tbolt external drives.
[andy patterson] “You can use it as a tablet if you use the Metro GUI or you can use it a laptop if you have a keyboard connected. The iPad cannot function in two different modes and does not support a desktop OS. You do realize the Surface Pro uses Windows 10 64 bit don’t you? “
I personally hate the Metro GUI and yes, I know it can run W10. In general, I’m not enamored with a touch GUI to start with, but it’s functional on the iPad. Sony’s Catalyst products and changes made to Premiere Pro to address touch interfaces in order to provide cross-platform support, have made parts of those interfaces worse when using these apps on standard high-resolution desktop and laptop screens. The UI design is needlessly “horsey” as a result. This is part of the justification for a macOS/iOS separation and I think Apple has been quite successful with it.
[andy patterson] “If you don’t want to believe me you don’t have to. I am just telling you like it is. Having said that please explain to me why an Apple iPad Pro would be a better option than a MS Surface Pro?”
It’s not a question of belief. Show me the numbers. As I’ve said all along, these two products are aimed at different objectives, which is something you aren’t willing to accept. Whether or not you or I might want Apple to produce a different product is not important. Apple is going to produce the best product for the market that it is trying to address – or in some cases – create. They’ll make the necessary changes based on feedback and sales criteria. So far I’m not seeing that here.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
[andy patterson] ” I doubt a lot of Apple users know the difference between LGA 1151 and LGA 2011(not that all PC users do).”
I’m one of the biggest PC proponents on this forum, and I don’t know the difference between an LGA 1151 and LGA 2011. In fact, it’s been one of my contentions for almost 6 years now that you can buy a well-integrated PC from a reliable vendor, just as you’d buy a Mac Pro from Apple. You can have access to more options (some of which outperform Apple hardware at significantly greater expense), you can have access to great support (on-site repair beats a trip the mall in my book), and you never have to even think about things like “LGA whatever.”
Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive | RenderBreak [blog] | Profile [LinkedIn] -
[andy patterson] “I know of several Apple users who still have an iMac but opted for the Surface Studio over the iPad Pro. Even Leo Laporte who once was a big Apple loyalist loved the Surface Studio and even stated there is no need to opt for an iPad over the MS Surface Pro. Many people have criticized Apple about the iPad still using a mobile OS. Leo even said Windows 10 is awesome. Many people think MS is doing a better job at giving graphic designers a more useful product than Apple. If you don’t want to believe me you don’t have to. I am just telling you like it is. Having said that please explain to me why an Apple iPad Pro would be a better option than a MS Surface Pro?”
I carry both a Surface Pro 3 and an iPad Air 2 — and I got the iPad after I got the SP3. I used my Surface as a tablet for a while, but it’s pretty chunky and heavy in comparison with an iPad. As Oliver mentions, the Surface is a fantastic small laptop, but I certainly understand why people would prefer the iPad form factor.
Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive | RenderBreak [blog] | Profile [LinkedIn]
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