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Is this why the new Mac Pro has been taking so long?
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[andy patterson] “[Bill Davis] “I understand that there are a few who must live on the edge of performance to get what THEY do done efficiently. And if you’re 3d modeling, Or chasing billions of polygons – bless you and I hope you get what you need.”
Shouldn’t Apple offer the best solution possible?”
Why? Do you understand Apple’s business model? Look at what happened to the historical big iron companies of the past, like Cray or SGI. Simply not what Apple does. In fact, they shed themselves of as much of this as possible – XSAN, XSERVE, XSERVE RAID, etc. The margins are just too small and require more of a support structure than Apple wants to invest in.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
[Oliver Peters] “Shouldn’t Apple offer the best solution possible?”
Why? Do you understand Apple’s business model? Look at what happened to the historical big iron companies of the past, like Cray or SGI. Simply not what Apple does. In fact, they shed themselves of as much of this as possible – XSAN, XSERVE, XSERVE RAID, etc. The margins are just too small and require more of a support structure than Apple wants to invest in.”
I think it is implied “the best solution” on par with a PC. I am not asking Apple to be like Silicon Graphics or Cray Computers of the 1990s. Apple should offer better solutions for creative people but I know they will not. They still have the iPad running iOS and that is why many creatives have switched from Apple to a MS Surface Pro. The Surface Pro runs Windows 10 64 bit. That is kind of what I meant by “shouldn’t Apple offer the best possible solution” as opposed to gimmicks but Apple knows their their loyal customers will drink the Kool-Aid no matter what flavor. I doubt a lot of Apple users know the difference between LGA 1151 and LGA 2011(not that all PC users do). Technology scares many Apple users so they assume the Apple products are the best out of ignorance. For some Apple is more like some kind of crazy tattooed beat rodeo messiah cult than a computer company.
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[andy patterson] “Technology scares many Apple users so they assume the Apple products are the best out of ignorance. For some Apple is more like some kind of crazy tattooed beat rodeo messiah cult than a computer company.”
Don’t you think that’s a rather insulting, unfair, mean, and simplistic characterization? It could be equally applied to any Windows user. It pretty much defeats the rest of the argument you were attempting to make.
Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
[Oliver Peters] “[andy patterson] “Technology scares many Apple users so they assume the Apple products are the best out of ignorance. For some Apple is more like some kind of crazy tattooed beat rodeo messiah cult than a computer company.”
Don’t you think that’s a rather insulting, unfair, mean, and simplistic characterization? It could be equally applied to any Windows user. It pretty much defeats the rest of the argument you were attempting to make.”
I stated for some. Some being the keyword. Some Apple users have built hackintoshes and others have ditched the iPad for the Surface Pro. Apple does rely on brand loyalty. There are people that will stick with Apple no matter what. Do you disagree with that? I don’t see loyalty to HP or Dell although there may be a few. Keep in mind there is a difference between real facts and pure personal bias.
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[Tony West] “Because most people will have to ultimately deliver in that anyway right?”
You can transcode to whatever you want if you are doing a proxy edit/ reconnect to camera originals workflow for grading. Once you transcode from a camera RAW codec to ProRes you have baked in colour temp, ISO and gamma. This may limit you in grading so transcoding has potential penalties. If you use Resolve to transcode and do a basic correction from the RAW you may be able to minimise those compromises.
Delivery can be multiple codecs for different viewing environments. ProRes is a bit of a nuisance as many consider it a bit of a standard. Compared to DNx it is far from useful as a standard as it is proprietary and not open to encoding on any platform or NLE.
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Some Apple users have built hackintoshes and others have ditched the iPad for the Surface Pro.
And most Apple users haven’t done anything like this. I think the vast majority of people using Apple computers are quite happy with what Apple has to offer these days, and I don’t see the MacPro as something this vast majority uses or even needs. Not even those of us working in television or film production.
A year ago a friend who works at a large tv production company asked if they could have a few MacPros to try out because they were planning to buy 42 new computers to use with FCP X. They tested them for a few weeks and they decided to buy 42 maxed out iMacs instead because the price difference did not justify the performance gains. And these guys need performant hardware because they produce long-form television programs that often involve heavy 4K multicam projects that they want to edit natively. I spoke again with my friend not so long ago. He told me that since their purchase they have been delivering 200 hours of on-air content with the iMacs without any problems. So it seems to me like Apple’s current product line is more than powerful enough to handle even the most demanding editing tasks.
But I do agree that some people who work in specific niches in our business (VFX, 3D, VR etc…) would like to see more CPU and GPU power than the current MacPro can offer. If Apple does come up with an improved MacPro, good for them. If Apple does not produce a more powerful MacPro, I think those people may rightfully decide to switch to another platform. The question is: is this really important? Because I already see quite some companies who happily use Macs for media management, editing and delivery alongside with Linux computers for VFX work or PCs for VR stitching (most stitching applications are Windows-only anyway).
As an example: another friend of mine is currently editing a 10 million Euro drama tv series for Spanish television. The show is cut on FCP X using 4 iMacs, VFX is done in-house with Mistika on a PC, audio is also done in-house running ProTools on an old MacPro, and all systems are happily connected with each other over a 100TB LumaForge Tower. Even if Apple releases a more powerful MacPro today, this won’t matter to them at all. So where is the problem? Just use what you think is the most efficient hardware available for the specific work you need to do today, because we all know that tomorrow things may be completely different. At least, that’s one thing I learned from being in this business for the past 38 years.
– Ronny
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[Michael Gissing] “You can transcode to whatever you want if you are doing a proxy edit/ reconnect to camera originals workflow for grading. “
Yeah, that’s exactly what I do.
I like that I can edit 6k on my “old inept computer” even though nobody ever hands me 6k footage because it’s super overkill for most things.
[Michael Gissing] “ProRes is a bit of a nuisance as many consider it a bit of a standard. “
It’s not a nuisance for me. People consider it “a bit of a standard” because they get asked to deliver that so often.
Which was my point. So, I guess we kind of agree? -
[Oliver Peters] “Not in my frame of reference. It’s simply a”stand-in” for the original. I make a differentiation between proxy and ProResProxy. One is a substitute, the other a specific format. In fact, in Adobe’s “proxy” parlance, you can specify the size and codec of the “proxy” file. In other cases, a proxy file might be the same resolution as the original, but with a LUT and TC burn added.
Just like the terms offline and online editing. The de facto assumption is that offline would use lower-res media and online would use higher. But there’s nothing that says it can’t be the other way around.
“Haven’t thought of it like that before. Though even Apple and Sony use ‘proxy’ to refer to low res media that’s a place holder for the high res masters. Maybe my definitions just haven’t changed with the times?
[andy patterson] ” I don’t see loyalty to HP or Dell although there may be a few. Keep in mind there is a difference between real facts and pure personal bias.”
While now dated, have you ever heard the phrase, “Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM?” Do you remember the Zune Tattoo Guy? There are certainly a lot of Windows/PC loyalists that wouldn’t be caught dead with anything made by Apple. Maybe you hang around too many Mac-centric places so you don’t notice, but get around a more general cross section of the computing user base (which is still by and large PC users) or go to PC-centric places and you’ll certainly run into those that vehemently prefer PCs (or as they are known in gaming circles, The Glorious PC Gaming Master Race ;)).
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[Andrew Kimery] “While now dated, have you ever heard the phrase, “Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM?” Do you remember the Zune Tattoo Guy? There are certainly a lot of Windows/PC loyalists that wouldn’t be caught dead with anything made by Apple. “
Having done Microsoft videos, as well as others for various software vendors, I can certainly attest to the fact that each has just as loyal of a set of core users as does Apple. That doesn’t make any of them wrong. Same reason so many film editors are content to stay with Avid.
But, a prime example is my son. He’s a musician and up until a few years ago a committed Windows/PC user who was more that happy to trash-talk Macs. As a guitarist, he’s more than familiar with musicians’ gear loyalty – Fender vs. Gibson, and so on. Yet, a couple of years ago, he decided to shift to a 2013 Mac Pro, Apogee, and Logic Pro X and hasn’t looked back since. He’s now more than willing to admit he’s had to eat most of his words.
[andy patterson] “Some Apple users have built hackintoshes and others have ditched the iPad for the Surface Pro. Apple does rely on brand loyalty. There are people that will stick with Apple no matter what.”
Andy, as far as the iPad/Surface comparison, you must be seeing a small sliver of the market. Surface is a cool product and so is the larger desktop model. Yet, the only creatives I know who are using them are those that were given them by their company to use. Most Surface users I see are using it as a smaller laptop. Apple rightly or wrongly has decided to target the iPad as first and foremost a consumption device and not a reduction of the laptop, yet with enough power and features to support other needs. When I travel, unless I need my MBP for editing on-site, I only travel with the iPad and sometimes an external keyboard. It fits my needs just fine. Whether or not Apple will evolve the pro into a different type of product is something we’ll see in the future.
In my original reply, I commented on SGI and Cray, not because these were high-end machines, but because they were high-end machines that the market could no longer support. In the end, Apple is there to make money. Investing in the R&D for a super-duper machine that attracts .01 % of the market simply isn’t good business and doesn’t serve the larger set of users.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
[Ronny Courtens] ” I think the vast majority of people using Apple computers are quite happy with what Apple has to offer these days, and I don’t see the MacPro as something this vast majority uses or even needs. Not even those of us working in television or film production.”
My experience echoes Ronny’s. I’ve been in the TV biz since 1971 in college. In that time, I’ve built, managed, and worked out of facilities at all levels. I have been part and parcel to buying a lot of expensive heavy iron for my employers. The majority of it is barely worth the scrap metal value these days. I stand by my belief that when it comes to buying hardware, software, and easily producing product, today is significantly better – and a far sight cheaper – than yesterday. And that’s with largely off-the-shelf commodity equipment. And most of us have Apple to thank for that – at least getting the ball rolling.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com
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