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Is there a winner here between Canon and RED?
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[Jeremy Garchow] ” Those were his words “won’t accuse you of fraud”, “bait and switch”.”
May as well quote the whole sentence:
“RED, I will not accuse you of fraud, but this feels like bait and switch. Intentional or not, “everything is subject to change” or not, the effect is the same.”
Bit different, huh? But as it’s nuanced and he does makes sure that what he’s saying is clear later, you may want to read the whole thread…26 pages of it as of this morning.
Again, though, his post can be read for the points he makes. If you wish to dismiss him because of his expectations and ignore his points I find that rather cavalier. But each to his opinions.
David
AllinOneFilms.com -
Why say fraud at all? In my mind it’s not different. He wants to accuse them, but he won’t.
[David Cherniack] “[Jeremy Garchow] ” Those were his words “won’t accuse you of fraud”, “bait and switch”.”
May as well quote the whole sentence:
“RED, I will not accuse you of fraud, but this feels like bait and switch. Intentional or not, “everything is subject to change” or not, the effect is the same.”
Bit different, huh? But as it’s nuanced and he does makes sure that what he’s saying is clear later, you may want to read the whole thread…26 pages of it as of this morning.
Again, though, his post can be read for the points he makes. If you wish to dismiss him because of his expectations and ignore his points I find that rather cavalier. But each to his opinions.
David
AllinOneFilms.com
“I still haven’t made my way through it. I read three or four pages and it was enough. Some are for it, some are against, it mirrors a lot of what happens here on the debate forum.
What I’ve gathered is that he’s pissed because it’s not the camera Red had alluded to it being over the course of the last 3 years.
Such is life. He fell for the marketing and is mad at Red even though Red’s policy is to count on things changing.
I am reading a lot of people bought support gear because they thought that the Scarlet was going to have different specs. I’m sorry David, cavalier or not, that’s a not a smart way to go about things. Hmm, let me buy these tires for a car I know will be coming out someday, but I’m not sure what the rim size is going to be.
I’m sorry he’s frustrated, but I still maintain the Scarlet will be an exceptional little camera at that price.
It just won’t go 120fps at HD+ resolution. It’ll go 60 @ 1080p, though.
What other camera can you get for the same price does that, that also shoots raw 4k video, 5k stills, has interchangeable pl, canon, and soon Leica m mounts, High Dynamic Range video, audio, tc. Today.
It’s a steal if you ask me, but I didn’t have many preconceived notions about it.
I’m not dismissing him.
Did he mention if he had used any Red cameras before?
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[Jeremy Garchow] “These newer generation red camera now have clean 1080p SDI out. If using a KiPro, you a even record camera metadata that will allow an easy reconform back to r3d if you want the Raw for color correction.
If not, then you can just use the 1080p ProRes files.”
Just to ask (I’ve never worked with that kind of stuff) is that a better option than the F3 10b/RGB?I have to say that my preference for the F3 is biased because is a one-man camera.
rafael -
[Jeremy Garchow] “What I’ve gathered is that he’s pissed because it’s not the camera Red had alluded to it being over the course of the last 3 years.”
I think that exaggerates his response and is the least part of his post which is a comparison of the power of the original spec’d Scarlet with what was announced. He argues compellingly that the original was a much more powerful camera in terms of processing power (pixels X fps) and that Jannard’s reason for the failure to produce a fixed lens Scarlet (the lens didn’t hold focus through the zoom) doesn’t hold as a reason not to produce the removeable lens version. Both of these points have not been addressed by anyone from Red. I would suggest that if he’s a little annoyed he has reason and that the substantial number of ad hominem attacks on him are just another example of the kind of technological fanboyism (really a spiritual substitution) that’s so prevalent these days. Reduser.net is the high water mark of the techno-cult, making all others, even Apple’s, pale in comparison. And that’s pretty hard to do.
David
AllinOneFilms.com -
[Steve Connor] “I’m mid-way through a project using a clients Sony FS100, very nice camera it’s halfway between a DSLR and an F3. Very easy to use and the AVCHD codec holds up much better than I would have imagined. I know it’s not in the same league as a Scarlet but it’s certainly a step up from a DSLR.”
I’ve been curious about that camera since reading this Engadget review a couple months ago:
https://www.engadget.com/2011/08/26/sony-nex-fs100-review/
In their wrap up, they imply that it wouldn’t be that good for run and gun:
To make the best use of a camera like this, you need to shoot quite traditionally: tripod mounted with a matte box, in a relatively gentle environment, with time taken to light and frame each shot properly before pressing the record button. (Read: too good to be true.) Shooting reactively for news or documentaries is not impossible, but it’s difficult.
What’s your experience been like so far? Does run and gun seem possible, or is Engadget basically right?
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David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl -
[David Lawrence] “What’s your experience been like so far? Does run and gun seem possible, or is Engadget basically right?
“I don’t agree in most part with their review, I’ve used the EX1 a lot over the last couple of years and I find the FS100 to be broadly similar especially with the stock lens. It’s not a shoulder mount camera of course, and you do need to take more care with focus, but I’ve been filming some actuality with it and I found very little restriction with it.
Also the fact you can shoot with 18db of gain, with almost zero noise really helps in poorly lit situations. The picture at 18db is actually cleaner than an EX1 picture.
“My Name is Steve and I’m an FCPX user”
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[Rafael Amador] “Just to ask (I’ve never worked with that kind of stuff) is that a better option than the F3 10b/RGB?”
You can’t get dual link out of the Red, but there’s really no reason to.
This will get you 422 proxies (in whatever flavor of ProRes you want) with an easy match back to the raw files which you can then render out to 444 if you want or need it.
[Rafael Amador] “I have to say that my preference for the F3 is biased because is a one-man camera. “
Meaning it takes one person to use it? How is the F3 different than other cameras in its class in this regard?
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[David Cherniack] “He argues compellingly that the original was a much more powerful camera in terms of processing power (pixels X fps) and that Jannard’s reason for the failure to produce a fixed lens Scarlet (the lens didn’t hold focus through the zoom) doesn’t hold as a reason not to produce the removeable lens version. Both of these points have not been addressed by anyone from Red.”
Why does everything have to be a conspiracy these days?
That “original camera” you speak of never was. They tried, they failed, and the current Scarlet is the result.
You can’t have 5k 120fps camera that’s $39k, and a 4k 120fps camera for $9750.
Aren’t they going to release a cheaper Epic at some point as well? I don’t know, things change so much and so fast over there, it’s hard to keep up. It’s much easier to just pay attention to what’s in the red store.
There’s a reason one camera costs more, it does more, which means it has more expensive parts (and is hand built, which drives up the price). Red is up front about that, and has been for some time.
I also wonder if he’s actually used a Red to see what it can do in terms of image quality. He might not be so disappointed if he took it for what it is, instead of what it isn’t (boy does that sound familiar around here, or what???).
He can still get 120fps out of it, granted its at a compromised pixel count.
[David Cherniack] “Both of these points have not been addressed by anyone from Red. I would suggest that if he’s a little annoyed he has reason and that the substantial number of ad hominem attacks on him are just another example of the kind of technological fanboyism (really a spiritual substitution) that’s so prevalent these days. Reduser.net is the high water mark of the techno-cult, making all others, even Apple’s, pale in comparison. And that’s pretty hard to do.”
Shouldn’t you be taking that up with the reduser people? That forum is totally bonkers sometimes.
I agree with you about Reduser. It’s a jungle over there, and it’s hard to find the right info and you do have to machete your way through a bunch of underbrush to get to the clearing.
There’s a whole thread specifically for the Scarlet announcement feedback. What is interesting about Red is that you can communicate, or at least have a chance to communicate directly with the heads of the company. That guy should take his post over there.
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[Jeremy Garchow] “Meaning it takes one person to use it? How is the F3 different than other cameras in its class in this regard?”
for what I see in the pictures is not not much different (je, je) than my EX-1, with his handle LCD, viewfinder…
The longer body of the f3 seems to be easier to balance and easier to manage for handheld or with a normal shoulder pad. Easier to work with the camera in low positions (handle, LCD), two REC buttons).
Also seems to have more space for all the buttons and controls and the kind of buttons and control and in the positions I’m used to.
As i said, up to the pictures, for me looks easier for the run&gun, for taking it out of the bag and start shooting.
BTW, something I like from the Canon is that records on CompactFlash cards.
rafael -
[Jeremy Garchow] “You can’t have 5k 120fps camera that’s $39k, and a 4k 120fps camera for $9750.”
I don’t think he was asking for that, rather that a 3k 120 fps camera for 7-10k was what was shown at NAB and talked about by Red there, before and after, and that Scarlet’s Nov. 3 announcement was hyped by Jim as so exciting, he could hardly keep his skin on. Well, I’m sure, and to some extent it was, but for those who had been waiting on a 3k 120fps camera, based on what Red had said and done, the reveal was a major shock.
[Jeremy Garchow] “I also wonder if he’s actually used a Red to see what it can do in terms of image quality. He might not be so disappointed if he took it for what it is, instead of what it isn’t (boy does that sound familiar around here, or what???).”
I have no doubt he was aware of Red’s image quality. His disappointment may be because a) he can’t afford a fully tricked out 20k+ Scarlet, or b) he needed 120fps or c) the new form factor doesn’t work for him (the original Scarlet could work like a run & gun, this one is Epic sized, which makes it more difficult to use that way).
[Jeremy Garchow] “Shouldn’t you be taking that up with the reduser people? That forum is totally bonkers sometimes.
I agree with you about Reduser. It’s a jungle over there, and it’s hard to find the right info and you do have to machete your way through a bunch of underbrush to get to the clearing.”
The Red people are generally very responsive. But they’re not exactly Catholic in confessing their sins. As for the steamy fanboyism over there, they tacitly encourage it, though it must get tiring reading all the wows, greats, incredibles and fantastics one word posts after Jim reveals his latest tidbait of information.
Finally, and I think we’ve done this one to death, I love Red images. I think they’ve really cut a new edge in camera development and I’m looking forward to using one of their cameras in a future shoot, whenever the existing form factor suits what I’ll be doing.
David
AllinOneFilms.com
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