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Is ProRes 4444 the right thing fomr me?
I need to capture 10 bit 4:2:2 straight to a computer for green screen work. Uncompressed would be of course the best but the hardware and storage requirements are insane. So I was thinking about using ProRes. But the question is should I use ProRes 4444 or would ProRes 422 HQ be more than enough? I know ProRes 4444 is 12 bit 4:4:4 so would I be gaining anything in using it to capture 10 bit 4:2:2 or is it only for 4:4:4 sources?
Now there’s also the other side of the story, which is I was told to forget ProRes all together and use Cineform because it is wavelet instead of DCT and is supposedly better than HDCAM SR. Is it so and should I go with Cineform then?
Prores is also said to introduce level shifts.
Post will be all Mac with Final Cut Studio (mainly FCP and Color), Shake and Nuke.
I know there’s Cineform for the Mac but I’m not sure it works with the Blackmagic Design’s DeckLink which is the card which will be used.
The piece will be shown in movie theaters before movies and will be heavily color graded and stylized so the key and quality needs to look good and although there’s no way of using a 4:4:4 system like the Viper or F23, I would like to capture the 10 bit 4:2:2 with the best quality possible short of uncompressed.
Any advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks. -
27 Replies
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Hi Adam,
Prores 444 supports 12b, but I really don’t know in which circumstances you will get such 12b.
Of course no when capturing with a crd that supports only 10b.
Neither out from FC for the same reason.
I would think on my workflow.
For what you say, I imagine that you will cut in FC, then send to Color.
Here in Color is when your captured footage will be first time processed.
Converted in RGB.
So your decision is about how to keep the most from the 10b Unc that feed the capture card to Color.
I can not tell you nothing about Cineform because I’ve never used it.
But between Prores 444 and Prores HQ, I don’t see much advantage on going 444.
If you capture 444, the video card will nicely fill the missed chroma. But this interpolated chroma won’t be of much help when Color will convert to RGB. I guess that Color will do the same job starting with the 422 picture.
IMO the choice would be between Cineform or Prores HQ.
The best solution would be Sheer (the best codec of the world), buts as long as Apple still not supporting it, probably would complicate your job.
Best,
Rafael -
Forgot.
From Color, when your picture reach the 32b RGB, I would go Proress 444.
Here is really important to keep all the Chroma.
A bit of DTC compression would be bearable for this purpose.
Rafael -
[Adam Claude Jones] “I know ProRes 4444 is 12 bit 4:4:4 so would I be gaining anything in using it to capture 10 bit 4:2:2 or is it only for 4:4:4 sources?”
That is only accurate when the original source material is 12 bit.
Your looking at this from the top down.
the first question is ‘what is my deliverable?” if its HD or less ProResHQ / Standard would be fine for Greenscreen work. Use 4444 when you need to maintain the alpha, as with graphics.
” I was told to forget ProRes all together and use Cineform because it is wavelet instead of DCT and is supposedly better than HDCAM SR.”
While Cineform is a great codec and recommended by me and others as the ideal codec for cross platform workflows, I do not feel that it is any “better” that ProRes HQ or 4X4.
“although there’s no way of using a 4:4:4 system like the Viper or F23, I would like to capture the 10 bit 4:2:2 “
Then capture direct at the camera and not from tape or cards, that will be the only way to achieve the highest quality of imagery you can.
gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, ILhttps://blogs.creativecow.net/24640
https://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php
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Thanks for the reply Gary.
Your looking at this from the top down.
the first question is ‘what is my deliverable?” if its HD or less ProResHQ / Standard would be fine for Greenscreen work. Use 4444 when you need to maintain the alpha, as with graphics.
The deliverable is 35mm filmout and digital projection for movie theaters.
While Cineform is a great codec and recommended by me and others as the ideal codec for cross platform workflows, I do not feel that it is any “better” that ProRes HQ or 4X4.
What is the advantage of Cineform for cross platform?
While editing, keying and color grading will be done on a Mac, there may be some parts of composited on the Windows platform and they returned to Mac for editing finishing.“Then capture direct at the camera and not from tape or cards, that will be the only way to achieve the highest quality of imagery you can.”
I’m not sure I was clear on my original post but this is exactly what we are doing. Capturing the 10bit 4:2:2 1920×1080 signal straight out of the camera’s SDI to a computer. Just want to make sure I capture it at the best quality possible (codec?) short of fully uncompressed which will be unpractical for us.
Thanks.
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Not sure I understand what you mean here Rafael.
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I mean that you have no advantage in capturing 10b 422 as 10b 444.
But there are many advantages on going to Prores 444 from the moment you have to render firs time your picture.
When you process in Color at 32b, your picture inside Color is 32b RGB.
If you export to 422 will be Chroma down-sampling: You throw the half of your color samples.
If you export to 444, it wont be down-sampling: you keep all the color in all your pixels.
Do you understand this?
Rafael -
So you are saying I should capture it in ProRes 422 but then convert it to ProRes 4444 before editing?
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No.
Capturein Proress 422.
Cut in FC and send to Color the original Prores.
From Color export Prores 444.
There are very good reasons to shift to 444 at this point.
rafael -
I see. Thanks.
So you can’t use the send to FCP function. You have to render out and re-import in FCP. I never did that but I would think you would have to render a self contained movie then? If so you would lose the ability to tweak the cut, transitions etc. There are advantages in using the send to FCP function, specially with a big sequence.
So why not convert to 4444 before going into FCP? Would it slow FCP any? Thanks. -
Then you should learn about the Round Trip process and how to set handlers so you can trim the sequence back in FC.
Whatever the path you fallow you won’t have any benefit with 444 until the first rendering.
Rafael
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