If you’re jumping to Windows – Something to ponder

[Jeff Bernstein]

All I got to say is… “Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? NO!”

[Walter Soyka]

Craig, you’ve raised an interesting point, but I’d agree with most of the other posters that it’s not at all the same as the Apple/FCPX situation. Herb and others have already argued that you can simply replace an HP workstation with another one from another vendor without serious interruption. One of the biggest benefits of the PC platform is its openness — you have many choices, and are not tied to one single vendor.

I’d add that HP is being very open about their future plans, and customers today can use that information to make business decisions. If HP had done what Apple did, you wouldn’t be able to buy a Z800 today, and they would have recalled old stock from distributors. Instead, HP is continuing to operate the PSG business exactly as they were yesterday.

The IBM/Lenovo example has come up a few times, too. Here, I’d mention that Lenovo knew what they were buying when they bought that business — the ThinkPad and ThinkStation lines, and with them, access to professional market segment with high expectations for quality and durability. I know from personal experience that Lenovo’s ThinkPads really do continue IBM’s tradition of top-notch engineering and build quality, and the ThinkStation D20 looks like a nice competitor to the HP Z800.

I think it’s a mistake to look at the computer industry financials as a whole and assume that workstation financials follow. In my quick look, I couldn’t find anything on workstation margins specifically, but I’d guess HP’s workstation margins are healthy. I just configured a very nice Mac Pro on Apple’s web site for around $8000. An equivalent Z800 (same processors, memory, hard drive, connectivity, warranty) priced at $9500. The HP Z800 cost nearly 20% more than the Mac Pro for roughly the same hardware! Given HP’s size, I can’t imagine that’s all higher component cost. Additionally, according to HP’s 2010 annual report, workstations revenue increased 42% over 2009. I’d be very surprised if HP’s workstation business weren’t robust.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events

[Craig Seeman]

[Walter Soyka] “Herb and others have already argued that you can simply replace an HP workstation with another one from another vendor without serious interruption.”

Absolutely not true when it comes to hardware compatibility. On a day to day basis I’m dealing with people who find video cards that work in one CPU have problems in another, which is why I mention Blackmagic but it’s not limited to that. I’m dealing with people who find driver issues with different combinations of hardware.

[Walter Soyka]

[Craig Seeman] “Absolutely not true when it comes to hardware compatibility. On a day to day basis I’m dealing with people who find video cards that work in one CPU have problems in another, which is why I mention Blackmagic but it’s not limited to that. I’m dealing with people who find driver issues with different combinations of hardware.”

This is an issue if you buy and configure your own gear. This is not an issue if you work with a VAR. It’s a very simple trade-off: time or money.

Once you have a machine working, don’t go updating drivers and software willy-nilly. Stick with supported configurations that work until you have an actual need for an upgrade. Maintain a known-working disk image you can recover to in case of emergency.

As an aside, driver nirvana doesn’t exist on the Mac platform, either. I have a couple kernel panics a week in my Mac Pros with NVIDIA Quadro 4000 or GTX 285s.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events

[Craig Seeman]

[Walter Soyka] “This is an issue if you buy and configure your own gear. This is not an issue if you work with a VAR. It’s a very simple trade-off: time or money.
“

I agree. I thought I had mentioned that VAR was an option. Right now many VARs are using the HP Zxxx series. No one can say with a certitude were that will go from HP. Sure it’ll have value to some company or spin off but the desktop side of the computer industry is not in great shape.

I make no claims the Mac is better beyond it being a system with limited choices so much more limited problems. Developers are clear what they are/aren’t doing for it though. Kernel panics only happen to me only when there’s a real hardware failure or rarely when a hardware device hasn’t been tested for compatibility. I just follow the hardware device’s provided info and I know the compatibility otherwise I call the manufacturer. With Macs they’ll know the answer almost immediately. I’m dealing with Mac and Windows environment daily and given the consulting I do it’s many more systems then my own on both platforms. With Apple, there’s so few systems that you pretty much know what you’re getting and what it’s compatible with assuming the third party companies are honest in their tech notes.

[Walter Soyka]

[Craig Seeman] “I agree. I thought I had mentioned that VAR was an option. Right now many VARs are using the HP Zxxx series. No one can say with a certitude were that will go from HP.”

I know, but my point was that a VAR will not sell you a system that has the sort of conflicts that you’re discussing. If the Z800 were discontinued, VARs would find another workstation configuration and sell that.

You certainly can’t predict what any one vendor will do overnight with their products, but open markets move a little slower. Even if the biggest workstation vendor drops out, as long as people still need workstations, someone will build and support them.

[Craig Seeman] “I make no claims the Mac is better beyond it being a system with limited choices so much more limited problems. Developers are clear what they are/aren’t doing for it though. Kernel panics only happen to me only when there’s a real hardware failure or rarely when a hardware device hasn’t been tested for compatibility. I just follow the hardware device’s provided info and I know the compatibility otherwise I call the manufacturer. With Macs they’ll know the answer almost immediately. I’m dealing with Mac and Windows environment daily and given the consulting I do it’s many more systems then my own on both platforms. With Apple, there’s so few systems that you pretty much know what you’re getting and what it’s compatible with assuming the third party companies are honest in their tech notes.”

I mentioned some Mac stability issues (my NVIDIA issues are not uncommon) only to point out that configuration and driver trouble crosses platforms. I really do apologize if I was mischaracterizing your point of view, and I certainly don’t want to start a platform war. I own, use, and specify both Macs and PCs (the right tool for the job at hand!), so I think I’m Switzerland in that regard.

I suppose my main point is that Apple’s discontinuation of FCS3 is not analogous to HP’s interest in selling their PSG division for two reasons. First, the specialized software we use fundamentally affects our workflow more directly than the commodity hardware does. Second, HP is actually being upfront with the public and with their customers about their intentions for the platform.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events

[Herb Sevush]

“Second, HP is actually being upfront with the public and with their customers about their intentions for the platform.”

And third, they are spinning off the product, not EOL’ing it. Imagine the difference in this forum if Apple had announced that they were selling the FCP code to Blackmagic – but why bother when they could reap the buzz of sacrificing their user base on the alter of Cool.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions

[Craig Seeman]

My point is when talking about facility costs to move, the cost of having to buy a new hardware system and the costs of using a VAR are significant. For the editor it might be “easier” to change hardware but it may be no less costly.

If you have systems built around Blackmagic or Osprey cards you (or the VAR) have only certain hardware choices just as if one used FCP7 you have limited places to go relative to budget.

If you needed to replace your HP Zxxx workstation and it was packed with Blackmagic cards you’d have to examine system compatibility with those cards or dump the cards too. If you were to go to Blackmagic’s site you’d see HP Z and their motherboard choices supported but not Dell for example.

The point is ANY movement required by the end user due to a change of development is going to cost.

No one will know what is going to happen with HP’s PC business until it happens. People who configure hardware that works on HP systems may (or may not) have some tough decisions to make. But this is commonplace in the industry.

[Robert Brown]

I’ve had my share of troubleshooting Windows but I’ve had to do some of that in Mac as well. In any case a lot of that stuff is much better now as the number of variables has reduced.

Any manufacturer of a “touchy” program would probably just tell you what it works with. And since a lot more components are now mounted on a mother board than used to be it’s that much easier. I.E. Use Intel MB xxxxxx. Even Apple went that route and use Intel MBs.

Then also there are only a handful of major players in the I/O device market. It’s very easy right now to build or buy a reliable windows system for editing.

The biggest issue I see to troubleshoot is in cross platform networking, and SANs etc. and that has more to do with configuration which is probably not as bad as it used to be but can still be a nightmare.

[Craig Seeman]

[Herb Sevush] “they are spinning off the product, not EOL’ing it.”

One doesn’t know until the decision is made. Products are bought for many reasons and spin off companies can change directions very quickly. Right now desktop computers are not a lucrative market.

Of course maybe a company like Avid, who makes proprietary hardware although trying to be more open, might find the HP Zxxx series perfect for building and selling turnkey systems . . . but what would that do to Premiere Pro users.

FCPX is not EOLd and if one can have hope for HP PCs one can have hope for FCPX. It’s speculative.