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I QUIT…. Working for nothing.
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My son has told me numerous times he thinks my work is cool and everything, but it is not what he wants to do. I said much the same to my dad about his engineering career at that age, though it seems way cooler to me now. I told him the thing about how it’s okay to be a little puzzled at what you want to do, coming out of school, what with each graduate looking forward to working in five different careers in their lifetime, compared to my one. He likes cooking, but isn’t into restaurants, and I can’t blame him, the margins are lower even than in video right now. He is ranked something like 20th best in the world at Battlefield on x-box, and sometimes he muses about a military career. I don’t encourage him on that, I don’t think he’s suited for the commitment, and you need to do something like that for the right reasons besides money. That’s a job that is 100 percent about commitment. He does have a good command of language (must have got it from his mother), and he can write passably well. Paralegal might work for him, as he likes to argue (again, must be from mom’s side). If he doesn’t find something by fall, I might enroll him in welder’s school or home healthcare worker school. He will make enough to live on his own, while he figures it all out.
Andy, it’s your career we still have to sort out. What else can YOU do, assuming you’ve quit the video business? Do you have a plan?
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This is what i`ve done mark
After 27 years I have now made the move and joined the lowballer association.
Had no choice…
Sorry fellow shooters, who are now going to ridicule me.Reason: Can`t make a full time salary anymore in the business!
Always being undercut!
Competeting with part timers who just want quick cash!Can`t beat them so may as well join them.
I would like to congratulate Eric who has a few fish helping him keep the sharks happy.
The fish will dry up though and then the fishing will have to start again.As Eric also said there is work out there..
I agree there is, but it does not mean you will get any descent pay for it.Anyone can be busy working for nothing!
And this is what is happening!!Too many people now in video production.
More competition will bring down the costs… Buyers market.So got my myself a proper job with a guaranteed salary and now doing this on the side.
Upsetting but had no choice.
This is the reality of the business.s what ive done mark as shown on thread
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Mick, I wouldn’t pay much attention to andy’s post. Andy- Running a successful production company does bring you into contact with the president of a company and high ranking execs. A few calls and a creative pitch sent out last year put me directly in contact with the chief exec of one of the largest councils in the uk, a similar scenario happened recently with the creative director of one of the largest design companies in the uk.
Andy, don’t snipe too hard at professionals who are making a very good living from production. The business has changed and good ideas, excellent service and solving problems a firm didn’t know they had, will always be a part of it.
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I know I’m late to this party but if people can still be successful writers, singers, artists, musicians, athletes, etc., I don’t see why video production is any different. A guitar, pencil & paper, paint, etc., are much easier and cheaper to come by than even the most inexpensive video gear.
Mark,
If your son really is 20th in world at Battlefield has he thought about trying to game professionally (I agree that being good at a FPS game is a far cry from being a good fit for military life)? It’s obviously a sink or swim career but if he’s talented and dedicated why not give it a shot? -
[Andy jackson] “This is very interesting!
https://philipbloom.net/2011/08/07/rates/“
It was interesting.
One of my favorites is the guy with the RED, that will go out with a crew of four for 600 (Euros, £, not sure of the exact currency) a day! It won’t be long before someone just like him comes along and will do it for 500. While anecdotal, most of the stories seem to land more on the sky is falling side of the debate.I know everyone has been beating you up about working harder, marketing and such. All of that is a pipe dream. Most don’t credit the real cause of their success. Luck.
Those that think they are not subject to market forces are simply living on borrowed time, and sheer luck. The clock is ticking because the vacuum that allows some to escape the current market conditions is fragile. Eventually companies go broke, get bought, or the CEO, controller, COO or other key people that control the money are replaced. Your contact at your best client moves on or retires, a new guy comes on the staff that questions your rate, or has ten friends of his in the production biz. Or both. Client ad rates fall off, or their hits start to dwindle, budgets get cut, the job goes ‘in house’, priorities change, etc. That’s the luck part of the equation. If you haven’t had an upheaval like this at even one (or more) of your best clients, that is simply luck. You may think it’s your ‘mad skillz’, but it’s not. Because many of these factors are beyond your control, so your skills have little, if any bearing on the outcome. So, when things like this happen, you are just one search away from losing the gig to someone with a lower rate, if you refuse to lower yours, assuming there is even a job left to bid on. Sure there is the argument that instead of lowering the rate, just provide more. But at some point that will hit a financial wall and no longer work. And how does that keep a client where the new guy wants to give the work to his friend’s? How do you keep a client that goes broke because he has been over-paying his vendors, or his revenue has fallen off? A most often repeated answer here has been to just get new clients, or to be constantly trolling for new clients. There are three basic problems with that. One is the above paradigm of change is at work at the prospective clients, just like it is at the existing clients. Secondly you don’t bill for hours spent marketing, only hours spent shooting, or editing. There is only so much low hanging fruit. At some point the hours spent marketing, the going rate for editing (which you have no real control over) and the available hours of paid work generated by the marketing will reach a tipping point and you won’t be able to earn enough to cover the marketing. Third, in addition to all the noobs competing for those same new clients (and probably your existing clients too), there are just too many long time pros out there that have the gear paid for, have less overhead, that can and will do the same job you do, or even more, for less money. Maybe it’s because they have diversified, as many here have preached, and can afford to do it for cut rate because now its just extra income. Doesn’t matter. There are only so many clients that have money burning a hole in their pockets and don’t care about rates. And fewer of those everyday. The rest of the good clients just haven’t figured out they can get the same thing, for a little, or even a lot less. But many will eventually get there. It’s not a question of if, it’s a question of when, because no one is immune from change. And those at the top, or are currently doing the best not only have the most to lose, but are probably the most vulnerable to upheaval and change when it occurs. Just look at the big post houses that are no more. They had the contacts, the best gear, the best people and all the marketing resources money could buy. And yet they were knocked off by a bunch of no-names with less resources who would do it for less.Scott Sheriff
SST Digital Media
Multi-Camera Director, VFX and Post ProductionThe Affordable Camera Dolly is your just right solution!
“If you think it’s expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur.” —Red Adair
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[Scott Sheriff] “I know everyone has been beating you up about working harder, marketing and such.”
Of course marketing will come up. Running a business calls for as much effort and technical skill as running a video shoot, and this is the Business & Marketing forum.
[Scott Sheriff] “Most don’t credit the real cause of their success. Luck.”
Life is full of chance. You can do everything wrong and succeed. You can do everything right and fail.
The pieces of advice offered in this thread are not recipes for success, because there is no such thing. They are suggestions for improving your odds.
I think you can systematically improve your luck, and I think you can systematically worsen your luck. Why not do everything you can to put the odds in your favor?
[Scott Sheriff] “Eventually companies go broke, get bought, or the CEO, controller, COO or other key people that control the money are replaced… If you haven’t had an upheaval like this at even one (or more) of your best clients, that is simply luck… A most often repeated answer here has been to just get new clients, or to be constantly trolling for new clients. “
Do you have a better suggestion? If you lose clients for any reason, you have to replace them or you are out of business. If you want to replace them, you have to develop them first. Keeping the pipeline full is part of the hard work of running a business — and it’s doubly hard when you’re a freelancer who needs to produce both billable work and sales — but it’s either that or watch your pipeline dry up.
[Scott Sheriff] “One is the above paradigm of change is at work at the prospective clients, just like it is at the existing clients.”
You don’t want to replace your lost clients with ones just like them — you want to replace them with better clients. Even if you believe that all clients are universally seeking lower costs (which I don’t believe), unless you are already at the very top, you should encounter some new prospects that would have been previously unattainable who are working their way down the ladder as you work your way up.
[Scott Sheriff] “Secondly you don’t bill for hours spent marketing, only hours spent shooting, or editing.”
If you don’t spend hours developing prospects into clients, who will you spend hours in production to bill for? Marketing efforts are necessary overhead.
[Scott Sheriff] “There is only so much low hanging fruit.”
True, and maybe that’s the fundamental problem here. All of a sudden, there are lots more people picking the low hanging fruit. If you can’t figure out a way to reach higher fruit, you’ll go hungry.
[Scott Sheriff] “There are only so many clients that have money burning a hole in their pockets and don’t care about rates. And fewer of those everyday. The rest of the good clients just haven’t figured out they can get the same thing, for a little, or even a lot less. But many will eventually get there. It’s not a question of if, it’s a question of when, because no one is immune from change.”
Likewise, no one is immune from economics. You’re suggesting that the entire industry will violate the quality-speed/scope-cost triangle. I don’t think that will happen. You can’t have all three — you have to pick two. Will the relative number of good-paying jobs decrease? Probably. Will they disappear? No.
(Sidebar: will the absolute number of good-paying jobs decrease? Possibly not, since the market itself is growing.)
[Scott Sheriff] “And those at the top, or are currently doing the best not only have the most to lose, but are probably the most vulnerable to upheaval and change when it occurs. Just look at the big post houses that are no more. They had the contacts, the best gear, the best people and all the marketing resources money could buy. And yet they were knocked off by a bunch of no-names with less resources who would do it for less.”
The market punishes inflexibility. Post houses were ill-positioned when a market disruption came, and they were unable to adapt quickly enough.
[Scott Sheriff] “”If you think it’s expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur.” —Red Adair”
Do you believe this quote? If you do, does that mean you think that the market will eventually swing back to “expensive” professionals as clients discover the hidden cost of low budgets?
Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events -
[Andy jackson] “Need to keep up with the cows members who are still in denial that the industry is doomed!!”
Andy,
You think so small and you are already beaten, so it comes as no surprise to me to find that you cannot make things work. Of course you can’t, you have yourself convinced that there is no answer and so you cannot find one.
I ran out of money many years ago. Lost all of my clients when I had pneumonia three times in a 24 month period. Almost died and had no business left when I finally began to get better. Had no money in the bank left, no insurance and no retirement left. Everything was gone.
But I am NEVER beaten because there is ALWAYS an answer but you have to not be a mental wuss to find it.
That is your biggest problem: you start from a premise of failure and so when it doesn’t work, you say “See? I told you so!” And you are RIGHT … for you.
This is too sad for words.
The conversation that you are having is one that has been going on in this industry for decades now. None of your arguments are new ones. Those of us who have been involved with the COW and the WWUG before that, have heard these arguments ad nauseum. But we have continued our fights and we win some and we lose some. YOU lose them all, it appears — and it surprises next to none of us based on your attitude.
I have stayed out of this and hoped that you’d learn something but people have broken out the play-by-play and have even gone so far as to give you the lay of the land from all of the things they have learned. You do NOT listen and you cannot learn because you cannot receive anything that does not agree with your own negativity and predisposition for failure.
Great. You win the argument. You are right, you will lose and your inability to adapt and adjust is what happens to species who cannot make the leap when the circumstances change.
You are right, you are going to fail.
You have ignored the advice of many here who are successful in spite of all the circumstances you decry and moan and groan about. They have something to teach you but you are an unwilling student it appears.
So please go away and make room for those who can listen and learn. You are beyond help.
Best regards,
Ronald Lindeboom
CEO Emeritus, Creative COW LLC
Publisher Emeritus, Creative COW Magazine
A 2011 FOLIO: 40 honoree as one of the 40 most influential publishers in America
http://www.creativecow.netCreativity is a process wherein the student and the teacher are located in the same individual.
“Incompetence has never prevented me from plunging in with enthusiasm.” – Woody Allen
“Be who you are and say what you feel because those that matter, don’t mind — and those that mind, don’t matter.” – Dr. Seuss
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“Mick, I wouldn’t pay much attetion to andy’s post”
I didn’t Tom. I used to be like Andy so I understand where he’s coming from. I was at a crossroads just like him. For me though, getting a “real” job wasn’t an option I was ready to embrace. So I reinvented myself and my company. I love what I do and get paid well to do it. When that changes, I’ll reinvent again. Change is the only constant. Great post BTW.
Mick Haensler
Higher Ground Media -
How Rude Ronald!!
“YOU lose them all, it appears — and it surprises next to none of us based on your attitude”
I have been in the business 27 years and have been successfull.
Paid off my house, cars etc and no debts. SUCCESS!My post is pointing out that yes things have changed. But for the worse.
“You have ignored the advice of many here who are successful in spite of all the circumstances you decry and moan and groan about. They have something to teach you but you are an unwilling student it appears.”
So please do not be patronising!
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