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Hair raising_output is a mess, not what was edited_FAQs?
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You can mark the individual clips, but I’m guessing that won’t help you? Are you using them to locate clips or mark specific points in the timeline?
I don’t think there’s anyway to have timeline markers move with the clips. Not sure how you’re repositioning them, but the fastest way is probably to copy the timecode for the new location, then open the marker you want to move and past the timecode into the marker timecode field. I can see that this would get very tired very fast when you’re having to move multiple markers all the time.
What specifically are you marking?
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[S.E. Ball] “Any techniques you guys use to jump from dif sections of the
timeline?”Nesting? Seriously. There is no hard and fast rule that nesting is only for graphics/fx.
In the Apple Manual (FCP>Help>Final Cut Pro User Manual>II-418) there are listed 3 reasons to use nests (probably more):
1. You can edit a movie using multiple sequences; for example, you can create a sequence for each scene and place it on the master squence…
2. You can use nested sequences to reduce the amount of rendering when working with effects.
3. Control the rendering order of effects used in your project.
As you can see, nesting is a legitimate workflow. There are some con’s, check them out – and there are ways around them (ie, when you’re locked and need an EDL, you could open each nest, copy the sequence inside to a final master sequence. This would also work if you are exporting an OMF file for audio mixing).
The point is, nesting is not to be feared, and is a valuable tool. The doc I’m working on is incredibly graphics intensive – in a very simple way, it’s entirely subtitled using FCP’s outline text. If I laid the whole thing on one sequence, I’d be in rendering hell, even using unlimited RT (I have a Quad, but with the stock graphics card). As I worked toward my fine cut, I had each chapter on its own sequence. At the end, I nested each sequence and put it on a new timeline. From there, I could export easily to DVD, or watch the film uninterrupted, and when I needed to tweak a section, I’d just open up that nest and voila, the sequence was right there. Make whatever edits were needed, then I’d go back to my master timeline again.
Others may have other ideas, but this workflow worked for me and my specific project. It would be interesting to hear what other long form editors who edit using multiple sequences do. But if nesting works for your particular project, then that’s the way to go.
I can’t remember off hand (at 3 am) whether my chapter markers automatically updated when I lengthened or shortened a nested sequence, but there were only 9 chapters so it wasn’t that big a deal. Here’s a quick way to move your markers:
– Place the playhead where you want it (you can easily navigate to the beginning of a nest, or clip) and press Shift + `. This snaps the marker forward (it doesn’t work backwards) to the playhead.
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I’m a long-form editor and I rarely use nests. I find (but this is just my opinion) they’re too clunky for non-specific purposes. It’s just a question of why do I need to add another layer to navigate? It sounds to me like you’re using it more for finishing than for cutting. It would personally drive me nuts to have to dig into a nest every time I wanted to make a change. More importantly, though (and this might be baggage from older versions) I’d be seriously worried about the nest updating properly, which is the reason, I’m guessing, this thread started in the first place.
[boydmcc] “The doc I’m working on is incredibly graphics intensive – in a very simple way, it’s entirely subtitled using FCP’s outline text. If I laid the whole thing on one sequence, I’d be in rendering hell, even using unlimited RT (I have a Quad, but with the stock graphics card).”
I’m curious, though, are you saying that Nesting reduces your RT overhead? You get more real-time layers when you use Nests? I wasn’t aware of that. Is that correct?
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The reason I nested was I have eleven chapters in my Doc.
It was mainly in the interest of saving time, getting from
one section to another.Double clicking on the nest to open the chapter is not a perturbance,
it was actually easier than constantly update the timeline location
of the markers.My problem was when we played back the timeline with the nests,
audio files were clipped on interviewees on crucial dialog lines,
too much randomity. I did not know about taking the opacity of
a nest, bringing to “0” and then back up again and render.I think the problem was pref’s needing trashing and corrupted render files,
although I don’t know yet, because I can’t take the time to re-render
the whole project.
I’m no longer using nests. I can’t afford any more problems.
I must finish the project as it is a viable marketable product
and will continue to “make it so”, since I own it.I basically need to do some tweaks over the next two weeks, when my
co-producer leaves, then will back up the whole project on a new
SATA drive and do the re-render boogie.Wish me luck. Doh!
Thnx.
SherwoodG5 Dual 2.5 GHz
4G Ram OSX4.6
Sata drives
Final Cut Studio 5.1.1, Logic Audio 7.1
PS CS2, AE CS2 -
“My problem was when we played back the timeline with the nests,
audio files were clipped on interviewees on crucial dialog lines,
too much randomity.”Ahhh, what you want to be doing in this case is mixing down audio. The nests are adding additional tracks to your audio RT overhead, and it’s bogging down. You can also set the quality of playback in your preferences. I leave it at lower quality and then do mixdowns for high quality.
“The reason I nested was I have eleven chapters in my Doc.
It was mainly in the interest of saving time, getting from
one section to another.”Now, this is what I wanted to find out!
What I’d do in your case is start out by editing in chunks, all in seperate seq’s, if you like to keep things seperated in chapters like this.
Then, when it’s time to do your fine cut or whatever, copy/paste everything into a master sequence.
Important Part Comes Here…
When you copy/paste the chunks into your timeline, leave gaps between each section. Keep it that way as long as you want to keep these sections seperate. Make sure you don’t have or create gaps anywhere else in the TL, only between these sections. This way, you can easily jump from section to section using Shift-G and Option-G to go forward and backward. Simple! And absolutely no need for the clunkiness of markers and nests.
What I was saying about nests earlier, is they should only be used for specific purposes related to fx building (IMO) b/c there are other ways to do practically everything else you’d want to do.
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[reel2reel] “I’m a long-form editor and I rarely use nests. I find (but this is just my opinion) they’re too clunky for non-specific purposes. It’s just a question of why do I need to add another layer to navigate? It sounds to me like you’re using it more for finishing than for cutting. It would personally drive me nuts to have to dig into a nest every time I wanted to make a change. More importantly, though (and this might be baggage from older versions) I’d be seriously worried about the nest updating properly, which is the reason, I’m guessing, this thread started in the first place.”
I agree that nests should be for specific purposes, and I also find that too many nests, or rather layers of nests, gets me confused. Not referencing you, but based even on my own experience when I was new to FCP, the whole idea of nesting was rather intimidating. I’m sure many folks shy away from using nests in situations where it would really help for that very reason. I just wanted to make that point that nests aren’t really complicated and can be the best tool for the job.
The whole issue of nests not updating seems a little whacky to me. I know you wouldn’t want the nests to update (or rerender) if you are rendering the timeline the nest is in, but if you update the contents of the nest, the nest itself should reflect that. I imagine there’s a reason the app is designed the way it is, but I’m not sure why. Then if you have nested elements in nested elements, well, I don’t want to think about that!
In the project I was working on, I had over 4 hours of interviews all in Chinese. To edit I needed the translation on screen. Using Outline Text after about 10-15 minutes, my RT was taking a huge hit. I ended up splitting the interviews into smaller chunks, then exporting out as QT with burnt in tc, then reimporting them so I could edit. The downside is that the subtitles were part of the image. Once I got to a fine cut, I then swapped out all that footage with the original footage and subtitles. I was able to polish some more by having each chapter in its own sequence. For exporting, etc., that’s when I did the nests. When I’ve had to tweak sections, it’s not that problematic to open the nest and go in to do it.
[reel2reel] “I’m curious, though, are you saying that Nesting reduces your RT overhead? You get more real-time layers when you use Nests? I wasn’t aware of that. Is that correct?”
If my understanding is correct, and the way it’s worked for me, you do. One of the reasons for using a nest, especially with graphics/fx’s, is that you can render the effects (which can take awhile), then nest it. You then put the nest in your timeline, and that doesn’t need to rerender if it gets moved, etc. The nest reads the render file in the cache – which is why we need to modify the nest (the easiest way being to adjust the opacity) to be able to rerender it. Depending on your graphics card, how much RAM you have, how many effects you have, or the type of graphic/fx you have, it can add up.
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It occurred to me after posting that you must mean rendering inside the nest and then getting more RT b/c the renders are preserved. That’s definitely a useful thing.
I can’t imagine subtitling four hours of interviews…you must have great patience! (That’s a compliment, btw)
I wonder if there’s any better app you could use for subtitling that isn’t too expensive. I think there are a few that subtitle quicktime movies, but I can’t remember the names right now.
The updating problem with nests, as far as I know, is just buggy behaviour. I’m not sure if it’s much of a problem in the latest versions of FCP, but in past versions, it was a good idea to yank the opacity bar on the nest up and down (or click visibility on and off, if I remember right) anytime you made changes inside the nest. Nesting is most definitely (IMO) a must-have feature, don’t get me wrong.
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Actually the translating (though not the subtitling – we’d do that in 2-3 hour segments and it took about a 3-4 days) turned out to be pretty enjoyable, there was an absolute gold mine of stuff in it. There are subtitling apps out there, including Belle Nuit Subtitler which is very good. I think they work better when you are either a native speaker in both languages or a native speaker in the language you are actually editing in. And usually done once you have picture lock. I know a little Chinese, but no where near enough to edit. I did know enough to help with translating parts, because I could say, “hey wait a minute, that’s not what she said”. I definitely learned a lot about the art of translating – while translations for the final cut can be more general in nature, to help with the flow/pacing of the film and not to bog the audience down, I found it critical to be as specific, word for word, as possible when actually editing. Probably the only real hair pulling experiences I had were when someone would express 3 distinct thoughts, requiring at least 3 English sentences, in only 3 Chinese words, taking less than a second of screen time. Argh!
The other workflow I recently read about for subtitling, was to put markers at the beginning of every sentence that needs translating. Then you can use the area for notes in the marker to type in the translation. I have another project, all in Chinese, that I will be working on, so I might try that way out.
As for nests, the opacity thing is the way to go to update, at least for 5.0.4 – not sure about 5.1x.
Take it easy.
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[boydmcc] “Probably the only real hair pulling experiences I had were when someone would express 3 distinct thoughts, requiring at least 3 English sentences, in only 3 Chinese words, taking less than a second of screen time. Argh!”
Ah, that’s cool. I worked on a film in Canada here that required a lot of Inuit translation. Thankfully, I didn’t have to get involved with that, but sitting on the sidelines, watching all the debates about what this meant and that meant and the translators saying the Director was manipulating things to make for better soundbites…I couldn’t help but wonder how much truth actually made it into the translation in the end.
Thanks a lot for the subtitling tips. That’s great stuff to know. The marker idea sounds like a great one, actually. I guess you want to make sure you mark the clip, not the sequence? Good luck with it!
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