Firewire Output–Just a rant

[Tony]

You can still output HDSDI into a Kona 2 and retain the FRC flags.

I personally despise using firewire vtr deck control as it is so slow and painful to watch.

Tony Salgado

[Chris Bell]

Firewire is voo doo. You are better off going HD-SDI into KONA or Blackmagic which can read an covert flagged footage.

Chris Bell

[Gary Adcock]

[Blayne Gorum] “A pet peeve I’ve had ever since my local rep told me about the 1200A’s firewire ability is still bothering me today. Why isn’t there a standalone converter that takes HD-SDI and turns it into a firewire signal that keeps the Varicam flags intact?”

as a standalone box no. The Kona 2 does this and you can choose your compression schema, whether it is 10bit UC, DVCProHD or even down converted dv-25 on the fly, and it sees all of the RP188 flagged frames also.
[Blayne Gorum] “I have a Varicam as well as the HD130 deck. Why can’t I join the party and use firewire? Hello AJA? Miranda? Anybody home? If they can put it in the HVX200 it can go in a standalone device.”

welcome to issues using a discontinued product, (the 130) or the business of creating a product with a very limited market- HDSDI -FW, while most of the people that want that technology grab the the 1200, you want to retrofit a deck with a converter that would most likely cost as much as a NEW DECK. ( based on the $6K+ price for miranda’s HDV to SDI converter)

From IBC

Gary Adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation
Chicago, IL

[Blayne Gorum]

The last time I checked the 1200 was about 25K with all the bells and whistles. Yet Panasonic has managed to fit a converter in an under 5K camera that will allow a 2K Firestore box to do what I can’t do with my umpteen thousand dollars worth of gear.

You guys are missing the point of what I am trying to say. I don’t really care about Firewire control and the idea isn’t to retrofit an old deck up to new (the 130 does everything fine thanks). The point is that for what should be less than the cost of a whole new mini camera I should be able to get firewire out of an SDI signal path. I am mainly concerned about going to disk as opposed to tape only. It would be nice to be able to capture to a PowerBook or something else (FireStore?) without having to lug a field deck around.

I’m sorry but the value proposition for something like that is tremendous. If that box existed everyone with a Varicam should want one. Of course it’s a small market, that’s why you charge 2-3K for a product that costs 200 to make and 95% of the R&D has been done–it already works in the 1200 and the new HDX2000 camera.

I’ve had at least 10 micro features shot on my Varicam. Every single one of them would have killed to have playback off of a PowerBook instead of having to rewind the camera. Being able to have everythingin DVCPRO HD quality on the drive on set would be a killer proposition for a lot of people.

Just handing a firewire drive to the editor so he can start chopping at full res if he wants. Not having to pull your hair out trying to get the EDL created from the mini dv dupes to actually conform. Being able to actually use the full 10 bits that the Varicam can put out.

Why would you not want to do any of these things that you can’t do now?

Of course you could lug your G5 out and do it. But you better not sit close to the sound guy.

[Tony]

Blayne,

Actually I don’t think anyone would want a HD-SDI to firewire converter for camera mastering recording because it completely defeats the purpose of preserving the native dvcpro HD codec intact from the beginning.

Instead you would have another level of compression occuring during the conversion from dvcpro HD to HDSDI back to dvcpro HD.

This is a less than ideal solution to preserve the native dvcpro HD recordings.

FYI the 1200A fully loaded and capable or recording as well as HDSDI and SD SDI I/O, firewire is closer to 35K approximately.

The base unit at 21K is a playback vtr only with no recording and no HDSDI or firewire card.

One major advantage of your 130 deck is the ability to record SP masters which will playback in the Varicam. The 1200A is the newer EX model which cannot record a master which can be played back in the Varicam.

In addition you can’t playback a recording made in the 1200A in early dvcpro HD vtr’s such as the 130.

If you want firewire out of your Varicam for on set video assist then consider the newly released Evertz fibre camera adapters and base stations which have a dv 25 firewire out as well as NTSC, SDI, HDSDI.

One item to keep in mind for future equipment purchases. Never buy the first generation model “A” products because you are the R&D for the manufacturer and within six months to a year a better cheaper alternative will be available leaving you behind in the dust.
If you can afford to rent the additional gear do so thereby allowing you time to wait for the next generation gear.

Tony Salgado

[Blayne Gorum]

This is rant going longer than I think is healthy, but I just gotta say…

1) Panasonic had a two month backlog on the 1200 last year–entirely because of the FireWire option. Everybody and their brother wants the ease of FireWire. Why else would anybody rent a 1200–with the exception of some of the cross/up conversion capabilities it has.

1.5) This could be the real reason we are having a misunderstanding–Just about every tape that is shot on my camera is either converted to some SD format (50% DV and 50% everything else), or they now use the 1200A to capture from tape to disk and not leave the DVCPRO HD path. Skipping the deck to disk part of the equation is what I am talking about. Not degrading the signal. Most (not all) clients can’t tell the difference between the DVCPRO HD and uncompressed 720p footage and will never go back for an HD-SDI uncompressed online.

2) I know you have to do it sometimes, but you don’t playback from camera unless you have to. Please don’t take this as a lecture–but I just think your point is sort of needless because of this.

3) With the SDI & FireWire options it is $31k list on the Panasonic site. With a normal discount of 20% it’s $24.8K. Apparently there is also some kind of rebate for $1800 also if you buy by 8/31.

4) It’s probably all moot, because if we are all good boys and girls the next Varicam release will have the FireWire option anyway.

[Kevin Lang]

Blayne I feel your pain I have been talking to AJA for months now about this and I have not got any interest from them. These techno geeks drive my nuts, it would be great to have something in the field to capture to a laptop and at least have a start and recapture later at full res if needed which I have to find a client yet that can tell the difference!

[Tony]

2) I know you have to do it sometimes, but you don’t playback from camera unless you have to. Please don’t take this as a lecture–but I just think your point is sort of needless because of this.

What the heck are you talking about? Or course any professional VC or DIT would always playback takes from the camera to QC the material recorded.

The roots to this disinformation may have resulted from a “film culture myth” that playing back camera masters in camera is dangerous or can cause dropout and/or damage the tape. However the camera should never be used as a playback device long term for capturing due to excessive hours on the playback heads as well as the transport motor. The latter is for the protection of the camcorder headlife.

I have heard countless stories on unqualified camera operators or even DP’s rewinding a tape and not recueing the tape and then recording over valuable takes. This is not a tape problem instead it has to do with the level of stupidity of the crew involved.

I have never had any issues or problems playing back from any camcorder. Here is a quick tip- slide the recording tab over to write protect the tape when doing a long playback.

Since you have not had the displeasure of using firewire capture let me tell you that the usefulness of it in the field with a powerbook under a serious tight deadline is a complete joke. I am not referring to the quality but rather the slow as molasses vtr firewire control which takes 20 seconds of cueing per each clip before the capture occurs. The only fast method to use is 422 deck control and use the firewire for the video in. In this case you are most likely using a powermac such as a G5 for capturing.

Using a powerbook for editing dvcproHD is less than ideal especially when you need to use the FRC plugin. I did a speed test on a powerbook, G4 and G5 with the FRC plugin and discovered a G5 can take 10 seconds to convert a clip whereas a powerbook took as long as 2 1/2 – 3 minutes per clip.

If you have access to a Kona 2 card you should test out the following capture scenario.
HDSDI out of the 130 to the Kona 2 which captures in dvcproHD. Yes this compresses the image again but the resulting image quality is worth it for the those who do not have the luxury of a firewire output on the playback vtr. 99.9% of clients will never be able to tell any visual difference.

Regarding pricing on the deck I was only referring to list pricing as the discount varies depending on from whom it is purchased from.

If you really are disappointed with your 130 deck you should consider selling it.

Tony Salgado

[Blayne Gorum]

Did I miss a boat somewhere?

You can be pretty insulting. I’ve been capturing firewire since there were only iLink devices to use it on. It’s what I cut my teeth on. I have been using the 1200A since there was a 1200A. I just don’t own one. I know all about the problems. This isn’t about deck control or editing deadlines. It’s about the lack of a useful tool that exists for other formats like DV, HDV and anything that puts out component analog. Why am I wrong to want this?

Would you actually go back and read the posts I’ve written because you are about 75% off topic and starting to act like this is something personal.

Bottom Line: It would be really neat to be able to capture to a hard drive in the field. Firewire appears to be the only option. Other formats can do this. Firewire meets the DVCPRO HD specs. On what planet is this a bad idea?

PS: Next time you feel like lecturing about “misinformation” pick someone who hasn’t had idiot ACs record over footage or break timecode because of playback. It happens as you yourself wrote. You don’t necessarily know someone’s competence until they show their lack of it. Of course there are “plenty” of times when playback is necessary. Wouldn’t it be nice to eliminate some of those times by pressing a button?

[Tony]

Blayne,

No I am not making this personal just offering another insight to your issues with your 130 vtr.

I may have not made it clear that AJA’s Kona 2 will indirectly do what you want to accomplish by allowing an HDSDI to dvcpro HD transcoding thereby taking advantage of the smaller dvcpro HD file size. No need to wish or hope for a HDSDI to firewire converter when all the Kona 2 is presently available. I do to foresee Panasonic adding a firewire port on any future varicam for use a playback capture to FCP as this in the long terms would be adverse for the camera tape transport.

If you want HD component analog outputs AJA along with other manufacturers make HD-SDI to HD analog converters.

I can’t be 75% of topic based on the issues which I address as they are are based on my personal experiences. Sorry you can’t relate to them. No I was never lecturing to you only offering professional in the field observations and methods to avoid major productions flaws and issues regarding tape playback.

Keep in mind that none of these flaws have ever happened to me or anyone else who maintains a constant level of professional security and protocol when dealing with camera masters.

If having a video assist person allows for a smoother and safer method for playback then I highly suggest client’s budget for that person and gear. Most Video Assist operators I work with capture to disk which allows for instant playback in addition to multicamera capture. The quality need not be dvcproHD as most director’s monitor are NTSC and production is not willing to waste more money for HD on set monitors when NTSC monitors are acceptable for content viewing only. This workflow is standard on 35mm film shoots as well so why should it be any different for a low budget HD shoot?

By the way if you really want to get rid of your 130 vtr and upgrade to the 1200A I can help you out. I’ll offer you $2000 for it.

Enuff said,

Tony Salgado