Final Cut on a 1.8 GHZ single processor

[Craig Seeman]

After much thinking I went with the Dual 2.3 G5 for my purchase. I currently have a Dual 800 G4.

In the broadest sense, faster systems come out every year so that shouldn’t be the biggest factor in a purchase. Current G5s are at least close to comperable to current Intels (AMD might have a slight edge here).

I know folks who use single chip Powerbook G4s to edit with, also folks who use single chip G5 iMacs. Given that it’s the iBooks and Powerbooks that can’t,will never get G5 versions, THOSE are likely to be the first Intel Macs. My GUESS is that the “high end” Intel Macs won’t be out until January-June 2007.

I was thinking about a Dual 2.7 G5 BUT i think the current G5s will have a little shorter compatable life.
Example. My GUESS the next major FCP upgrade will be late 2006. My 2001 Dual 800 G4 will run FCP 5 but maybe not FCP6. So it’ll have a usable compatible life from 2001-2006 (5 years). I do NOT think a G5 purchased today will run the then current FCP in 2010 (5 years). So I’ll spend a little less knowing I’ll likely upgrade sooner (maybe 2 years instead of 3 or 4 years) and use the savings on other currently needed gear for my business. Anything slower than a Dual Processor may inhibit my productivity.

The question is whether saving $1000 between single 1.8 and dual 2.3 is really a “savings” if you end up loosing significant time with DVD encodes, web compression, multi layered Motion effects with GeForce 5200 vs Radeon 9600 and single processor vs dual processor, especially if you end up having to wait 18-24 months for the high end Intel Macs. For some Motion users even the Radeon 9600 isn’t fast enough and they move to the 9800 or X800.

You also need to factor in 4 vs 8 memory slots and PCI vs PCI-X if you may need a PCI-X specific card before the Intel Macs come out.

The question you should ask is how soon will you be making money from your purchase (if at all). If you’re a hobbyist you might not make up the $1000 other than it will take much longer to render things. Even If you’re a low budget professional, saving an hour or so a week or fitting in another hour of paying work a week with a faster machine, should make you that extra $1000 you spend, in a few months.

IMHO the differences between a single vs a dual processor and a GeForce 5200 vs Radeon 9600 are significant enough that one should want to pay the extra $500 for the Dual 2G. On the other hand you then need to compare 4 memory slots and PCI of the Dual2G5 to the 8 memory slots and PCI-X of the Dual2.3G5 and Dual2.7G5. For ME, I decided I’d definitely end up expanding my memory before I upgraded to an Intel Mac in 2007. For my small video business I’m not sure about PCI vs PCI-X but I didn’t want to be shut out if I needed such a card nor forced to buy a G5 with PCI-X closer to the time the Intel Macs come out.

Your reasoning may be different but I think you and others might enjoy looking into my insight and reasoning in buying a Dual2.3G5 after the Intel Mac announcement.

The factors in purchase:
My GUESS – G5 bought today will have a shorter COMPATIBLE life than past purchases-downside
My GUESS – Capital cost of upgrade will happen sooner-downside
CONFIRMED – Business will have productivity/income benifit even if I buy now – big upside
Conclusion – Buy “just enough” for 2-3 years rather than anticipate 4-5 year life.

[Les Kaye]

Craig,
I’m not trying to be too hard on you. However, your’s was a well thought out response that unfortunately didn’t answer the original question – would the 1.8 G5 be okay for simply learning FCP. The original poster was clear about the pitfalls of a slower system, which in the end you elaborated on without answering the question. So I’ll chime in since I’m interested: “What about a slower G5 – even an IMac – just for learning and getting comfortable with the Production Suite if paying work was NOT a factor?”

Thanks,
-Les

[Craig Seeman]

Hi Les,

The reason why I brought up the “business” side as far as learning is concerned is that if after about 6 months of learning, you want to start doing work you may be right back to why didn’t I buy a little more computer and the Intel Macs for the “high end” might still be a year or more away.

You certainly use FCP Studio on a G5Imac. The first big hurdle is that you’ll have to buy an external firewire harddrive since you should not use your boot drive for edit media. That firewire drive will cost more than buying an internal drive for the desktop model. The desktop model is expandable so it can grow with you a bit. Even if you buy the single processor 1.8G5, you can buy a faster graphics card if you find you get into heavier compositing, more layers.

When comparing Single Processor G5 Imac to Single Processor G5 Desktop, the extra hard drive for the desktop will be cheaper and faster than a firewire drive (because you can add an internal one – SATA). The Desktop will allow you to upgrade the graphics card if you find you want more out of Motion.

The problem with the Single Processor G5 vs the cheapest Dual2.0G5 is that if you find yourself using DVDStudioPro (or even iDVD) alot, there’s no (easy affordable) way to add a second processor if you find encoding takes too long.

If you’re just learning you’ll likely find that it’s not worth the extra money for PCI-X (which you may never use) and 4 memory slots which can expand up to 4Gigs to be plenty for a couple of years. IMHO the Dual 2.0 will give you room to grow as you want/need.

iMacG5 – you must be external firewire drive and no easy way to improve Graphics card as you learn with more layers.

Single1.8G5 Desktop. You can add internal hard drive (cheaper and faster than firewire drive) and you can get a faster graphics card if your Motion lessons become more demanding. The single processor will result in much longer encodes if you’re doing lots of iDVD or DVDStudio pro work. The longer it takes to encode DVDs the less time for other stuff.

Dual2G5 Desktop. Expandable like Single1.8G5 but much faster iDVD/DVDStudio DVD encoding. It has a “faster” graphics card than the Single 1.8G5 which may keep up for a bit as your Motion learning gets more demanding, This will be an excellent startup computer for your business. Since you’re not likely to deal with shuch things beyond miniDV/DVCAM and/or HDV you’re not likely to miss the PCI-X slots. PCI will be good enough.

Is the iMac adequate? Yes BUT you’ll end up spending more money especially if you find you need more computer in a year and the desktop Intel Macs may not be out yet. There’s no easy way to expand it.

My thinking would be that at this moment in Mac history, you’d want a computer that you can expand as much as you can until you’re happy with the Intel Mac offerings.

As a “student” a Dual2G5 could take you comfortably through the next 2 or 3 years as you move from student to those small miniDV jobs. You’ll be able to add what you need when/if you need it without paying more upfront for the 2.3 or 2.7 (whose PCI-X and memory slots aren’t really a necessity).

I’d chose between the Single1.8G5 and Dual2G5. Just be aware that Single processor can become a drag on your time with some of the longer renders, especially when you start getting into encoding DVDs. If you’re just going to learn FCP than the single1.8G5 might be fine since you wont be hit too hard with long renders if you’re doing miniDV work and you’re not using lots of filters. It would be good for Documentary style editing for example.

t’s a much tougher choice these days no matter where you are – Student – Startup – Seasoned post house – with the Intel Macs 1-2 years away. Hope this helps. I

[Dg]

Thanks Craig ,

You brought up a lot of good points . I am an experienced editor , editing for about 16 years . The last 10 years I’ve used Avids on both Macs and PCs . I’ve also used Media 100 , Premiere ,Pinnacle among other NLEs . I do a lot of freelance work for cable Networks such as Discovery and Food Network . I usually do this work at larger facilities with their inhouse equipment and some of these facilities are starting to use FCP . As I said I currently use Avid systems , and I’m not looking to stop using Avids but rather to become proficient on FCP to add to my skill level and expand my horizons . I currently own a couple of NLE Avids and if the FCP systems was my only system I would definately buy the fastest one . I agree with you on the time saving benefits of the faster Duals . But this will primarely be to learn on and not the foundation of my business . The last Mac that I worked on was a G4 and I don’t have any experience with G5s . If I got the 1.8 GHZ , I would put in a much bigger hardrive and at least 2 gigs of ram . I’m just wondering if a single processor will make working on Motion excruciating . I primarely do long form work and wonder how well the 1.8 GHZ would handle 30 mins to an hour sequences on Final Cut .Thanks for the reply , those were very well thought out and valid points .

[Mrvideo]

I would say that if you are ONLY looking to learn FCP as another tool of your trade then even an iMAC G5 woud be sufficient for that. I am not advising you to try and make real money with that setup thought becaiuse it is not expandable.

For bottom dollar I would advise that you get a dual processor anything, even a dual 2 GHZ used MAC to start with over a single processor. Final Cut Pro uses dual processors for the rendering tasks and buying an older dual processor model vs new single processor tower would be more powerful, and the single processor MAC would be slower that the top of the line iMAC G5.

While it is good to know multiple editing tools, I would dare to say that once you use FCP, you will not want to go back to AVID.

[Les Kaye]

PD & Craig,
I’m pretty much in the exact same situation as PD. I’ve been primarily an Avid (& discreet edit) guy, now making the transition to FCP (which btw has gone swimmingly). Although I’ve got an XpressPro setup at home, I’m usually on someone else’s higher end systems. And just like PD, I also thought it would be nice to have an FCP setup at home precisely for getting up to speed with the Production Suite, and especially Motion.

After going around in my own head, until a few weeks ago, I was pretty much set on getting a dual 2.3. But this week’s events (which I’m excited about), also puts a little brake on that. Since this system for me would not PRIMARILY be one devoted to making money, I’m not sure I can justify to myself (let alone the wife) spending 3-4k (being realistic) on a system that WON’T really be that viable in a couple of years. A smaller scale version would be. If I knew I could use a Mini Mac just for this purpose, it would be fine with me. Honestly.

And seriously Craig, thanks for your well thought out replies. I didn’t mean to be too hard on you.

-Les

[Les Kaye]

[MrVideo] “I would dare to say that once you use FCP, you will not want to go back to AVID.”

Well, I’m very impressed with FCP – amazingly and surprisingly so. There are more than a few things it does WAY better than Avid. HOWEVER…this doesn’t mean that Avid’s now a boat anchor. There are still some things that Avid either does more elegantly or FCP doesn’t do at all. As a point of reference, discreet edit has some features (some of them pretty wonderful) that I’ve not seen duplicated in any other NLE. Meaning – they all have their strengths (yes, even Avid) and weakness (yes even FCP).

[Samuel Frazier]

Actually, I bought a mini for just that purpose. It works okay, I guess, but I’m not terribly impressed. The real problems for me are that the GUI and setup of FCP is so different from my PC nle that I’m not catching on very fast and also that the flashy things like Motion are beyond the mini’s power. I’m actually thinking of getting a G5 of some ilk just to see what kind of performance I can expect from fcp.

[Les Kaye]

Thanks so much! This is just the kind fo feedback I need to hear. FWIW, I also understand that Tiger allows Motion to take full advantage of the 64bit architecture.

[Oliver Peters]

[Les Kaye] “FWIW, I also understand that Tiger allows Motion to take full advantage of the 64bit architecture”

I believe that’s incorrect. According to what Apple’s folks have told me Motion2 can now exceed the previous 32-bit OS limit of 4GB/app. Under Tiger, Motion2 can use more than 4GB of RAM, which is part of the power of a 64-bit OS, but doesn’t make it a 64-bit app.

Sincerely,
Oliver

Oliver Peters
Post-Production & Interactive Media
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com