evaluating a HVX202

[Jan Crittenden livingston]

Final Cut will import the 1080/25P footage as 1080/60i. This is fine and appropriate. The HVX202/Pal units do not support 24P in 1080.

Best regards,

jan

Jan Crittenden Livingston
Product Manager, DVCPRO, DVCPRO50, AG-DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems

[Wilson]

Thanks for the response Jan, I am impressed that somebody from Panasonic monitors this list.
Are you saying that footage shot at 1080 25P when imported under the 1080i 50P codek into FCP (as thats the only one that works at all with any of the resolutions as far as I can tell) ends up being 1080 60 htz ie its no longer progressive but interlaced?

My issue is that all the frame rates that are available for that camera

1080i 50i
1080i 25P
720P 50P
720P 25P
720P 25N
576i 50i
576 25P

Cannot be edited by FCP, as far as I can tell the only resolution that is supported is 1080i 25P and that will co me in under the 1080i 50P codek and I assume it works a bit like segmented frame, ie it just uses the interlace as a wrapper to transport the progressive frame and reconstructs to a progressive frame at the other end. Our tests demonstrate that the frames are being played progressively.

We are very impressed with the pictures but with no way to edit it at 720P 50P in FCP its just not a proposition.
We also want to be able to shoot 1080i 24P and keep it progressive we don’t want it to come in as 60i
These issues will have to fixed for it to make any headway in the PAL world.

[Jan Crittenden livingston]

[WILSON] ”
Are you saying that footage shot at 1080 25P when imported under the 1080i 50P codek into FCP (as thats the only one that works at all with any of the resolutions as far as I can tell) ends up being 1080 60 htz ie its no longer progressive but interlaced?

When the camera captures an image at 25P, it captures 25images. Those images are split across two fields, thus the 50i. It does not end up as 60 HZ it is 50HZ. It was progressive when it started and is progressive on the timeline and will beprofressive when it rolls back out to tape. It is edited frame by frame.

>My issue is that all the frame rates that are available for that camera

1080i 50i
1080i 25P
720P 50P
720P 25P
720P 25N
576i 50i
576 25P

I thought that the 1080 would would and am surprized that the Standard Def does not work. I know the 720P is not working today but rumblings are pointing to IBC for that to be resolved. Keep in mind that in Europe 720P was only identified as HD standard at last year’s IBC, so the fact that it was not ready to be supported is no big surprize in my book. I mean why would any company put in the R & D to make something work if it was not a sure thing to become an accepted standard.

>only resolution that is supported is 1080i 25P and that will co me in under the 1080i 50P codek and I assume it works a bit like segmented frame, ie it just uses the interlace as a wrapper to transport the progressive frame and reconstructs to a progressive frame at the other end. Our tests demonstrate that the frames are being played progressively.

That is exactly so.

>We are very impressed with the pictures but with no way to edit it at 720P 50P in FCP its just not a proposition.

Again this is a time based resolution, it will be coming, just not on FCP today.

>We also want to be able to shoot 1080i 24P and keep it progressive we don’t want it to come in as 60i

This is just not going to happen. First your camera will not do it, and second there would be no way to establish the pulldown for one frame in a 50Hz stream. If you need 24P, you will just have to shoot in 25P and slow it down, as they have been doing for years in Europe.

>These issues will have to fixed for it to make any headway in the PAL world.

The first issue, 1080/25P is not an issue.

The second has a solution underway.

The third just defies engineering. You can’t take 24 frames and pulldown in 25 frames. This last “issue” frankly has not stood in the way for many filmmakers who have been using the DVX100 in Europe, including Wim Wenders with Land of Plenty.

Best regards,

Jan

Jan Crittenden Livingston
Product Manager, DVCPRO, DVCPRO50, AG-DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems

[Gary Adcock]

[WILSON] “Are you saying that footage shot at 1080 25P when imported under the 1080i 50P codek into FCP — its no longer progressive but interlaced?”

that is the nature of the 1080 format – it is a progressive segmented frame – and yes it will playback at 50i -1080 24 does the same think in the US captures are at 24fps and playback is at 48i.

[WILSON] “We are very impressed with the pictures but with no way to edit it at 720P 50P in FCP its just not a proposition.”
then talk to apple – the 720p50 standard was only accepted as a standard by the EU last summer.

should you wish you can take the 720p 24 preset in FCP and change the frame rates in the seq and play back settings – you will be able to use the 35p content inside of FCP – AJA Video also supports the 720p25 data on their hardware.

[WILSON] “576i 50i 576 25P”

you should be able to use the DV and DV-50 PAL settings to get these to work. – FCP however needs to be adjusted to the PAL upper field first setting.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Chicago, IL

[Wilson]

Thanks Gary for your suggestions.

You said

“should you wish you can take the 720p 24 preset in FCP and change the frame rates in the seq and play back settings – you will be able to use the 35p content inside of FCP – AJA Video also supports the 720p25 data on their hardware.

At the moment nothing will import from the P2 card other than through the 1080i 50P codac. Are you saying that we have to match the sequence and play back settings in FCP, before it will import? and by changing the frame rate of 720p 24 preset to 25 in the sequence it will import 720p 25 material shot on the P2 card?

You said

“You should be able to use the DV and DV-50 PAL settings to get these to work. – FCP however needs to be adjusted to the PAL upper field first setting.”

We will try that, thanks again for you help appreciate it, if you are ever in Oz I will buy you a beer.

[Wilson]

Jan said

“I thought that the 1080 would would and am surprised that the Standard Def does not work. I know the 720P is not working today but rumblings are pointing to IBC for that to be resolved. Keep in mind that in Europe 720P was only identified as HD standard at last year’s IBC, so the fact that it was not ready to be supported is no big surprise in my book. I mean why would any company put in the R & D to make something work if it was not a sure thing to become an accepted standard.”

Wilson

gary adcock has made a number of suggestion to get that to work (see previous post)
I agree, completely about IBC, I was aware that is about to be ratified

Wilson

>We also want to be able to shoot 1080i 24P and keep it progressive we don’t want it to come in as 60i

This is just not going to happen. First your camera will not do it, and second there would be no way to establish the pulldown for one frame in a 50Hz stream. If you need 24P, you will just have to shoot in 25P and slow it down, as they have been doing for years in Europe.

Wilson

Yea we do it all the time, I was just looking forward to releasing straight to a HDCam or SR Master at 1080i 24p without having to deal with 4.1% trials and tribulations.

Thanks again Jan for your assistance, I appreciate it.

Ian

[Gary Adcock]

[WILSON] ” Are you saying that we have to match the sequence and play back settings in FCP, before it will import?”

I do recommend that you change the setting prior to beginning the importing the footage- IMHO it seems that FCP wants the first clip on the card to be what you have FCP set to or it will not import. This has been reported by a number of people

[WILSON] “by changing the frame rate of 720p 24 preset to 25 in the sequence it will import 720p 25 material shot on the P2 card?”
You can try that As I said I can do it with hardware- and I am not sure that you will be able to do anything with the footage once you get it into FCP without some kind of hardware (AJA Kona Board) support.
But please try.

I don’t get to OZ as much as I would like to any more but I will be at IBC again this year.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Chicago, IL

[Gary Adcock]

[gary adcock] “WILSON] “by changing the frame rate of 720p 24 preset to 25 in the sequence it will import 720p 25 material shot on the P2 card?”
You can try that As I said I can do it with hardware- and I am not sure that you will be able to do anything with the footage once you get it into FCP without some kind of hardware (AJA Kona Board) support.”

Wilson
note too– you will need to change the playback, capture and sequence settings – and if you are going to use a deck at some point, you will need to check the control protocol timing also.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Chicago, IL

[Wilson]

[gary adcock] “WILSON] “by changing the frame rate of 720p 24 preset to 25 in the sequence it will import 720p 25 material shot on the P2 card?”
You can try that As I said I can do it with hardware- and I am not sure that you will be able to do anything with the footage once you get it into FCP without some kind of hardware (AJA Kona Board) support.”

WILSON
Yes we run BMD Extreme in all our suites and there is some support for the resolutions, but the 720P support is nonexistent until Apple do something.

Thanks again Gary

Ian

[Uli Plank]

50p and 25p in FCP is possible with some clever workarounds. A collegue in Germany has posted how:

https://www.finalcutprofi.de/phpboard/viewtopic.php?t=39930
(Unfortunately in German)

24p is only possible with an US model. I’d always use “conform” in Cinema Tools to get from 25p to 24p, since you may get dropped frames by other methods.

Regards,

Uli

Author of “DVDs gestalten und produzieren”, a book on professional DVD-authoring in German.