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Corporate Hubris
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[Mark Dobson] “The 35mm sensor would be a considerable jump up for me from the APS-C sensor thats in the 7D – almost twice as big.”
Uh. The APS-C senor is almost the same as 35mm motion picture film, that’s what you will some lot of film groomed DPs actually choose the 7D over the 5D.
A bigger sensor does not a better picture make on these still shooting DSLRs, plus the 7D does 60p in 720 giving you some slow motion if you want it. And the video out is a bit more stable (although still limited).
I’ll tell you what I think they were thinking, Herb.
Look what they did, they gave a true video camera in a Cinema style package that most every preDSLR DP has come to rely on, such as better onboard audio recording, timecode, and the ability to send and receive various signals to various on set departments/gear.
They knew exactly what they were doing.
They have also chosen a proven workflow with the 422 Long GOP codec. They didn’t have to go reinvent the codec wheel, and users (especially other Canon video camera users) are already familiar with the workflow. This basically means that the files are post ready and record to really cheap media cards. Also, look at their market. This camera represents a major step up from the DSLR market, but also keeps the workflow relatively easy, is innately more “professional” and most of their lenses will work with the EF version of the camera, too. That took some thought, when clearly they could have just went 444 and a whizbang codec, or allow users to rely on an external recorder like the F3 to get the most out of the camera. They added tc and a better codec to one of their DSLRs, and it’s $7,000. If they would have added real time video out and a non h264 codec, it would have been around $10-12k. So why not just go for it and make a camera that’s worthy of the video market and not the still market?
Assuming you have lenses for both of these cameras:
Let’s compare to that a Scarlet where the “bare minimum” shooting package is $14k, and will get you about 25 minutes of recording time @ 24p in 4k. Before you know it, the Scarlet will be more expensive than the Canon in recording media alone (then watch what happens when you add a viewfinder to that cart). Ideally, you are going to want to get a RedRocket for post which is another $5k, and then you need all the bits and bobs. You can’t say the Scarlet is necessarily cheaper.
These cameras operate very differently and I think will serve different markets (with some overlap of course).
With Red, you are buying in to a complete and total system, with Canon you are buying a tool that uses more generic recording mediums. They both have pros and cons, and shooting in Raw all the time isn’t germane for every situation. Have you ever done a complete Red project before? If so, how’d you like it? How much time did you have?
Plus, we haven’t seen this camera for ourselves, so in my opinion, it’s a bit early to trash it without even trying it. Tech specs aren’t the Golden Rule, and the price of these cameras does not include the price of the workflow. I’d also bet that as soon as Canon has these cameras shipping in volume, you will be able to get them. Red, you might have to wait. And then wait some more. Or you’ll have a handle and no battery, or a media card and no reader, ham: no burger. Supposedly, they are working on supply, but the proof is in the pudding (or is that putting?).
In my opinion, it’s not hubris, but a very deliberate decision to release this camera in this configuration.
Jeremy
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[Jeremy Garchow] “Look what they did, they gave a true video camera in a Cinema style package that most every preDSLR DP has come to rely on, such as better onboard audio recording, timecode, and the ability to send and receive various signals to various on set departments/gear.”
I’m not denigrating the camera in any way, I’m criticizing the marketing idea behind making the camera.
Yes, they made a pro video camera at a pro video price. And how does that distinguish them from the Sony F3? Why would I buy a camera from a company with a history of failure in the pro video market and no pro video distribution when I could deal with companies like SONY, Panasonic and Red.
The DSLR revolution gave Canon a unique market niche which they have steadfastly ignored for over 2 years. Now their brilliant idea is to throw away that niche to compete with other companies in the other companies marketplace with a very good, but not unique camera, while at the same time ignoring the original market that brought them to prominence in the first place.
Jeremy you know much more about cameras than I do. I am not a DP by any means, but I direct them and then work with the results of their labors. I know how loath many of them are to trust their workflow with untested vendors. To my mind cameramen are much more conservative with their tools than are post people. I just don’t see what Canon is doing.
As always, time will tell. People vote with their wallets and in this case nobodies waiting for the upgrade to come out.
So tell me, is your company going to buy one?
Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
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nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf -
[Herb Sevush] “Every time I hear someone talk about the inefficiencies of government and the virtues of getting a business approach in the White House I think – “please no, anything but that.””
And show me an example of government efficiency, please.
Chris
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I understand the confusion. I was really surprised at the price tag on that more than anything else. But there are plenty of rumors that a 5D MK III is on the way out which addresses some of the limitations of the MK II. But yeah, 20K just doesn’t make sense but who knows what the image quality will be, we’ll see if it catches on. But my guess is this unlike FCPX is a professional product, aimed at the RED/Sony maybe even Alexa market.
Robert Brown
Editor/VFX/Colorist – FCP, Smoke, Quantel Pablo, After Effects, 3DS MAX, Premiere Prohttps://vimeo.com/user3987510/videos
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Hoover dam.
The Manhattan Project.
The interstate highway system.Should I go on?
The Saulk Polio Vaccine (public health care without the profit motive, imagine that!)
Draining the malarial swamp to build Washington DC.
THe Golden Gate Bridge (or any other major one, in the US, really
Nuclear submarines (know any private corporations building those for profit?)
DARPA and the Internet (Bennett Cerf is still on record saying that Al Gore was the key guy in congress that would even listen to him)I’ll stop here my point being made.
“Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions.”-Justice O’Connor
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[Chris Conlee] “And show me an example of government efficiency, please.”
I wasn’t trying to make this a political discussion, I said that rhetorically. And if you actually read the line I didn’t say government was more efficient, I just said that big business wasn’t a model of efficiency that I cared to emulate.
But if you’d like my answer to your question I’d be glad to offer it to you off-line.
Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
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nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf -
[Herb Sevush] “Yes, they made a pro video camera at a pro video price. And how does that distinguish them from the Sony F3? Why would I buy a camera from a company with a history of failure in the pro video market and no pro video distribution when I could deal with companies like SONY, Panasonic and Red.”
Well I don’t think it’s a fair statement to say Canon has failed in pro video. They are one of the most successful lens makers in the world and they make some of the most pro lenses you can buy. I think what happened though was over the last 10 years there was so much change in video cameras they just never came up with the right combination at the right time although they still had some success in the prosumer market. That changed with the 5D and 7D which probably took them by surprise but all of those sales I’m sure got their attention and it probably sunk in what people were looking for.
But in any case it will be the look of the camera that sells it or not. I think Canon is in an excellent position to come out with a great video camera and I’d have no reservations buying one if I was pulling in the sales to justify the price. Since I’m not I’ll stick with the 5D for now.
Robert Brown
Editor/VFX/Colorist – FCP, Smoke, Quantel Pablo, After Effects, 3DS MAX, Premiere Prohttps://vimeo.com/user3987510/videos
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[Herb Sevush] “Why would I buy a camera from a company with a history of failure in the pro video market and no pro video distribution when I could deal with companies like SONY, Panasonic and Red.”
I think Canon has been pretty upfront that this is their first cinema style camera. So yes, you have to factor that in to your decision.
[Herb Sevush] “The DSLR revolution gave Canon a unique market niche which they have steadfastly ignored for over 2 years. “
I think the camera we are seeing has probably been in development for two years, or more. These things don’t happen overnight.
[Herb Sevush] “Now their brilliant idea is to throw away that niche to compete with other companies in the other companies marketplace with a very good, but not unique camera, while at the same time ignoring the original market that brought them to prominence in the first place.”
Are the 5Ds/7Ds discontinued? I don’t think they threw away a niche, this camera is not a still camera at all, it’s a different segment of the video landscape. Rather, they joined another niche.
Also, they have that new camera that has tc and a beefed up h264 camera, the EOS 1DX.
[Herb Sevush] “Jeremy you know much more about cameras than I do. I am not a DP by any means, but I direct them and then work with the results of their labors. I know how loath many of them are to trust their workflow with untested vendors. To my mind cameramen are much more conservative with their tools than are post people. I just don’t see what Canon is doing.”
It’s a new venture for them. They took what they learned from the DSLR crowd and made a real camera. From most professionals that I know that shoot with it, that’s exactly what they wanted, a real video camera. It is true, it is yet another choice in an already fragmented market.
[Herb Sevush] “So tell me, is your company going to buy one?”
It’s on the table. We haven’t seen it yet, so we can’t make a decision.
We are also slated to take Alexa for a spin later this year on a small series of spots. I am really looking forward to that one, but I highly doubt we’ll buy an Alexa. That will be a rental and certain jobs only.
We like the style of the 7D (we have a 7D, not a 5D) but it consistently falls short on the types of stuff we need it to do. It has become a specialty tool. One of these cameras, be it the scarlet, the cf100 or the f3 will be probably something we purchase; then again, those will be tools as well. There’s no one camera for us anymore, and if there’s no one camera for us, that means that there’s plenty of other people that are in the exact same boat. Although, I do feel that one of these sort of “mid range” cameras will eventually probably take over for our 7D.
What I like is that it will use our Canon glass right out of the box (as will a Scarlet).
the F3 will require a Birger mount, which is something that we have been waiting very patiently for a very long time. That mount doesn’t inspire a bunch of confidence as the delivery track record of late has been similar to Red. Announce it, hype it, and don’t deliver for a very long time. We can’t buy another camera without a sure bet that it will plug in to our system.
Then there’s acquisition. The 50mb Long GOP situation isn’t my favorite, neither is XDcam. The Scarlet no question, has the best on board acquisition codec, but it’s a bear to work with in post. It’s not hard, just time consuming. We can’t run a KiPro or Mini on every shoot we do, so the Scarlet looks pretty good to us, but again, we haven’t seen it.
In the camera market, there’s no clear answer for us, just like the post market. We have to wait for all of these things to release and develop a little more before we can make a move. We will certainly check out the CF100, along with the Scarlet and F3 + Birger. Just like FCP7, it’s time for us to take the next step at some point in the future that seems to be just around the corner. Presently, we aren’t quite sure where to go so we continue on with the tools at hand.
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I went with Sony.
The EX1R
I used no DOF adapter and no MB on this shot. Just controlling the amount of light into the lens.
People see it and think it’s a 5D shot.
Nope.
I have seen great looking shots from those D’s
I’m happy I can get that look and get my audio into the camera the way I have always been used to.
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Jeremy –
I missed the EOS 1DX announcement. Does it have HD-SDI out while shooting? I tried looking at reviews and didn’t see it mentioned.
Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
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nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf
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