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Client abusing our quote?
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When you bid a project, you simply make way for revisions. This does not include added product but it almost always includes revisions. As long as you ramp up your bid to allow for these, you’ll be all good. This is simply a growing pain. Make em happy and bif higher next time.
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[grinner hester] “you simply make way for revisions. This does not include added product but it almost always includes revisions. As long as you ramp up your bid to allow for these, you’ll be all good.”
Yeah, but who hasn’t seen the client who keeps making little tweaks, especially if he perceives that they’re all “free” to him? It’s a good idea to include a reasonable number of hours for revisions, but vital to set a limit on the time allocated to them.
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I guess it depends on the client. I’ve never had this problem. I try to set these kinds of gigs up so that I’m working alone. When that is the case, I can always get something done in half the time budgeted for as I dodn’t have to sit, discuss, oppease and explain every edit. I can simply make the show and rock on. Should they wanna swap a shot, I have plenty of time fluffed for that. Should I ever feel they are venturing into an exploitation phase, I diplomaticly explain it’s time to wrap it up. I’ll have em sit over my shoulder and make calls than make a final dub if I have to but my days of getting upside down on gigs are over.
That said… my flat rates are what get me lots of gigs. They are a great deal-sealer. If I threw out restrictions to that, I may as well just state an hourly rate and let em pass. -
I have been EXACTLY where you are now many times and here’s what I now do for self preservation: At the end of the initial conversation, usually on the phone, I’ll say, “Could you please shoot me an email as to what you’re needing exactly so I can respond tonight?” In this manner I have made them commit to clarifying what they need since we seldom have time for Letters of Agreement, etc. If they don’t send their email I send one listing my understanding of what they want.
I make sure I know what their deliverable is and if they want a Flash file I know to add an aggravation fee because I often become a ping pong ball for their IT dept or web people. Anything time consuming, like graphics, are a red flag to me and I will get more clarification before committing to a price.
I try to discern how many layers of approval there are, if more than one I add another aggravation fee figuring there’s GOT to be revisions with more cooks in the kitchen.
Grinner quotes a flat rate, I believe in giving a range, in this way they get the inkling we are in a FLUID situation: Want more? Costs more. I never quote hourly because they usually want to know what the total cost may be. Besides, when I hire vendors there’s no way to tell if they are fast or slow, so I require a range.
Some respondents mentioned “contract”. That’s crazy with big companies: They’re too big to sue, I’m too small to be sued. The legal fees would eat it up anyway. Often they have to send my contract to their legal people before signing and they mark it up in a way I can’t understand and thus need to send it to my attorney, so screw it, if I can’t trust you I don’t produce for you. I have generic Letters of Agreement that if push comes to shove I would show to their boss if needed, and if they’re a problem their boss’s boss’s boss. I have experienced my main contact being transfered, quitting, fired and yes, one even died, so my email trail is very beneficial.
Lastly, and perhaps this should be the name of this forum, we all must remember this: YOU CAN NEVER WIN AN ARGUMENT WITH A CLIENT, even when they’re wrong they’re right.
Good luck!
Ned
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[Ned Miller] “Lastly, and perhaps this should be the name of this forum, we all must remember this: YOU CAN NEVER WIN AN ARGUMENT WITH A CLIENT, even when they’re wrong they’re right.”
Boy, this is my day for disagreeing, I guess.
😉
The next column that I wrote for the September/October issue of Creative COW Magazine addresses this very topic — and it is one on which I most emphatically disagree.
At WalMart or at Nordstroms, the customer is always right. In a service business such as ours wherein you and the client interact for days, weeks, or sometimes even months on a project — as opposed to the mere minutes of a retail transaction — the customer is not always right. My customers know that I never claim to be infallible. When they claim that, it is my moral obligation to bring them to a balanced understanding wherein we can forge a respectable and honorable relationship. When someone insists they are right when they know in their heart of hearts that they are being a bully and are full of crap, I walk ’em.
I once handed a guy all his tapes and his artwork and told him to get lost. He asked for my work. I told him he was getting no bill and so he was entitled to none of my work. Period. He knew I meant it.
Ultimate Takeaway Close, kids.
Guess who lost?
They wanted their stuff and did not want to start from zero again. They calmed down and admitted their stress got the best of them. We never had to have that conversation again.
My new column will be out in a few weeks. It is an expansion on the thoughts that I began in Clients or Grinders: The Choice Is Yours.
If you believe that the customer is always right, you may as well paint a bulls-eye on your forehead if you work in a service trade like ours.
If you demand respect, you will get it. If you command respect, you better give it. But if you are going to roll-over every time that a client pushes you around, then you may as well make up your mind now that you need to get your named changed on your driver’s license…to Patsy.
In closing, in principle you are right, Ned. But in healthy relationships there is a balanced give and take. If one person is doing all the giving while one does all the taking, that never ends well. Real clients understand this and are pragmatists and realists. The “bully spirits” are not worth the bother, and remember that they respect a take-away close better than any other tactic that I know, at least in my experience.
Ron Lindeboom
creativecow.net -
Preach on, brother Ron!
The way I see it, if my clients didn’t want my input, they’d learn what the buttons do. -
[grinner hester] “Preach on, brother Ron!”
I’d be cautious about this. It’s great for people in a position of strength or economic security, who feel they can afford to lose a particular client. It may even be good advice for people in a more tenuous position. As Ron related, sometimes standing up to a client is the best way to keep them, and on good terms.
But I’d like to extend my sympathy to those who are not in such a strong position, and I would totally understand — as a temporary measure — being a bit more accommodating.
Bob C
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[Bob Cole] “I’d be cautious about this. It’s great for people in a position of strength or economic security, who feel they can afford to lose a particular client. It may even be good advice for people in a more tenuous position. As Ron related, sometimes standing up to a client is the best way to keep them, and on good terms.”
I couldn’t agree more, Bob.
One thing you have to remember when using a take-away close, is that you HAVE to be willing to lose the client — and never go back and bother them again.
If after you use a close like this and lose, and you try to go back and with hat in hand try to woo them again, you will have absolutely no credibility nor power whatsoever.
But to illustrate things even clearer, Bob: I have used this technique when I have had very few accounts and the gamble would have hurt something horrible if I had lost.
But…
The reality was that keeping the client when they had absolutely all control would have also hurt our business.
The sad part is that some people keep working with what I call Toxic Clients even when it is counter-productive and isn’t even profitable.
I have to be honest, when you don’t expect and demand respect (by being sure to give it to those clients just as liberally), you won’t get it in many cases. I have companies that I work with today who would have walked all over me had I refused to let them. And as I said, I did this when I had almost no accounts to speak of.
You will build the kind of company that you want and it starts with the first clients in, not with the excess that you have.
Lastly, I am NOT saying that you walk every client that is a pain in the patootey or who cops an attitude with you. Life happens and you have to get used to it. If you are waiting for fair, it ain’t likely to happen anytime soon.
What I am talking about are the ones who make it their life’s work to keep you from making a profit while they disrespect most all that you do.
Some can be saved, and in my experience most of them can. But the ones that don’t receive the wake-up call of a take-away close, are well worth losing…
…even when money’s tight.
And I have been broke many a time, believe you me.
Ron Lindeboom
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Having been in the same position myself many years ago I can only recommend what we did; complete this job at the agreed rate but in a meeting post the job a) accept responsibility for not making sure the contract was fully understood – as we/you had with the original client – and b) show them what the job should have cost and why.
You may lose the second client who sounds as if they either have no idea how to budget for the work they want or are going to try and screw every supplier in turn, but at least you’ll keep the original one.
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The problem I have seen with clients like yours is that want Champagne on a Beer budget. And if you give them this in hopes of more work will come down the pike, you’ll lose all around. I’ve talked to many business owners and freelancers as well as my own experience that people looking for “deals” always play that “more work in the future card.”
Future work is not paying the bills now. And who knows if it will ever really come? Ideas change, budgets change, etc.
I’ll give you an example that just happened to me.
I met a guy through an event I was doing and he wanted help re-designing his business’s website. He gave me the spiel about how he wants to add all these new sections in the future. And that “I” should keep those “future” projects in mind when creating my “proposal.” And also, he wanted to act now! Start right away.So I kept it in mind, and gave him a deal. 2 weeks went by and nothing. So i called him and we chatted. Guess what he said? “I only want to pay half of your estimate.” I’m like what?? And did I mention that he is in a similar field “wedding photography, videography.” So, wouldn’t “he” know how much time and effort goes into our creativity? What’s he billing his clients, I thought.
So, I ended up halving the estimate and throwing away some features. We revised it to a simpler design but he wanted certain features like a photo portfolio, and video portfolio. Months went by and nothing. Even with this new estimate he was willing to pay.
We had still been in contact because we were doing another event together in the coming months but I never mentioned our business deal. I figured I’d let him bring it up.
Well, 2 weeks before our final event (when I am at my busiest) he calls and says he wants to get the website started now! And was adamant about it. But, now he “doesn’t want” a website re-design, he only wants the “add-on features.” What a scam I thought! He already tried to widdle me down. Then wanted the discount price of the add-ons I reduced because he was getting a full website. And now he just wants to buy the “add-ons” for the discount price! Scam, scam, scam…..
So you know what I did…..I told him I couldn’t start the project until after our mutual event. And after the event he hound me by emails and phone calls to get a new proposal.
How did it end? I simply emailed him and told him I got another project that will take up a majority of my next few months. And found another local company and told him to contact them for help. In my hopes that he will see how he “lost a good deal” and see how much “real work” costs and/or let someone else deal with that headache!
Sometimes you have to walk away from money. Its hard but you do.
Owner
Plus More Media Group
Marketing Design Services – PlusMoreMedia.com
Marketing designs and videos that do more for your business!
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