Client abusing our quote?

[David Rodney]

Yes, good advice.

When times are tough like they are currently for freelance video producers here in Australia…what do you do?

Do you take some work and at least get SOME money (at least some cash-flow), or do you quote what you would reasonably like to get/should get and not get the work?

As I said, the job would have been fine if there were no further edits. The problem has been caused by not getting the client’s requirements before the quote was formalised and, in hindsight, it appears the client didn’t even know what they wanted until after the shoot and they saw what went on.

That said, after the shoot, they had asked me for 6 separate videos from the event (without detailed instructions for each – just one video of each of the 6 presenters/speakers that were there) and so I did what they asked: produced 6 videos and supplied them to the client. Now they have had a look at them, they are taking the weekend to work out what they want changed.

I think they are just totally oblivious to the amount of work it will take to make changes. Then again, perhaps they don’t care.

[Mark Suszko]

This is grinding. Subtle, but grinding nevertheless. They say the Devil cannot hurt or control an innocent person unless and until the victim actually invites him in. That’s kind of what you did by being too eager to close the deal without more details on paper.

Another concept in addition to all the good advice so far is, you can always cut them a discount or rebate after billing them a large but safer amount, if the job turns out easier than you budgeted for. Imagine how they would feel to get a small refund check and and note that says” We found a more efficient way to execute the edit and saved some time over what we had estimated on this job, so here is a rebate to reflect passing on the cost savings to you. On future jobs with you we’ll apply our new more efficient approach to help keep your costs lower as well.” Rebate for over-estimate, or applied to the next project as a discount or “added value” package. Spinning it positive.

Sounds a lot better than “I know I promised you the moon and stars for a firm twenty bucks, but it turns out I was overconfident, did not know the whole score, and underestimated the job; can I have some more of your money now to make up the shortage?”

As far as the competitor you underbid, maybe they were not as stupid as we thought. Freelancers often get a bad rap for charging large amounts for comparatively small jobs, but often what’s not considered is all the overhead they also have to pay for, if they plan to do better than break-even. And some clients, once you know thenm you build in a certain “inconvenience charge” into your billing to account and budget for predicted fickle behavior and other things they do that drag out or slow down or otherwise complicate a project.

And you have to manage expecations by always giving a caveat or proviso on any kind of estimate. In this case, you should have said how many, if any, re-edits were considered part of the offer, and how much additional editing/revisions would cost.

Specific to this current problem:

My take is, you did all that was asked of you up to this point, with little guidance. Now they want additional work done. If you bought a suit, how many times would you expect free alterations from the tailor until he told you to get stuffed? Once? Twice, maybe, if they just didn’t get it right the first try, or you’d bought a LOT of stuff. But three times? No. They would charge you for keeping pace with your ever-changing waistline.

You are willing to do more editing on their stuff, but IMO it must be billed and signed off as a separate project. If I really had some stones, I’d also ask for the shoot and first edit to be all paid up before going on to DO the re-edit. A grinder will try to keep the issue of unfinished business as a shield between himself and paying you for work done up to this date. Don’t allow them to run a tab.

The whole thing is a clusterflop, because there were too many unknowns on the first job, not enough details on paper before you did it. They kind of have you by the short hairs on this now. The only wiggle room you may have is to stretch out the delivery date on any further work, because it was not put on the calendar, and you have other, paying clients in process already.

Worse, members of sub-divisions of a larger organizations talk all the time between each other. This case is going to leak back to your other “mother-lode” client. Keep that in mind as you defuse this unexploded bomb. They are watching how you handle this, or if you’re going to BE handled.

[Matt Townley]

David, I don’t do a lot of content/production, as that is not my main focus of business, but I have a handful of clients I do little things for.

I had a client that I was working with this week that I edited a short (9min) piece. They shot it and gave me a rough EDL with ins/outs and I was just doing the cut with some titles, music, a few effects and a tad bit of color correction. I spent about 5 hours on it by the time it was said and done. He approved it and then I encoded it for his website.

After he put it on his website he called and asked if I could “just throw a title on the beginning of it real quick.” To do that would have been another 45 minutes of work plus a few hours of encoding time, but he didn’t know that. He thought it was just as simple as typing in the title, so I took a few minutes to explain why it took more time and work than that. He totally understood and I suggested just typing the title on the website under the video. He was more than happy with that solution.

A little client education can go a long ways sometimes and now he will understand why things cost what they do (especially change orders) on the next project we do together.

Matt

[David Rodney]

Mark and Matt, all good info, thanks.

The fact is they called and asked me to record a presentation evening for their records. When I quoted them, they said “we don’t have that much in the budget, but we can afford $XXXX”

The real issue is that they didn’t really tell me all what they required for this production until after the shoot was completed. The whole production was presented as a basic shoot for their records. Perhaps I missed the boat at the appropriate time and should have said then…after finding out they wanted 6 separate videos from the night “hang on, that’s not what we were of the understanding that we were quoting on”, and they would have to realise they didn’t help us out in the information department.

But I went ahead with the edit of the 6 videos anyway, knowing we could cop it on the chin as long as it went no further. And we were thinking it would go no further as we followed those instructions.

The fact is the brief was simple: “could you come and shoot a presentation evening we have this Friday”. Sounded pretty simple. I made the mistake of assuming they wanted a basic shoot and edit perhaps to DVD for their records. It’s what it sounded like in the beginning. They gave us no reason to believe otherwise.

But I have actually provided what they wanted now and I just do not understand what could be changed, anyway, as it was such a simple production – shoot to record a function for their records. It wasn’t like we were shooting something with a million variables (like a TVC) and being left to my own devices to produce it….

Whose fault is this? The client because they didn’t really provide enough information on the production in the first place, or ours because we didn’t ask enough questions?

I will wait to see what changes they are requesting (as I said I am not really sure WHAT they could want changed) and then consider my response. Perhaps I am being paranoid and they will come back with minor changes.

I see my real problem now is that I have to find a diplomatic way of saying “We weren’t advised of and, therefore, didn’t quote on this type of production and the time allocated for the job as discussed initially has been exhausted…these extra edits are going to cost more” without upsetting the apple cart.

Damned if I do (creating a sense of conflict on our first experience with them) and damned if I don’t (making a rod for our backs with not being able to charge more to the other divisions in the future”.

My only saving grace might be that when I go to quote again I will have the opportunity to defend my quote on this job by saying “yes, but it started out as one thing, and ended up being another”.

Any minor changes will require re-rendering of the videos which takes up to an hour each, which could, with all the fiddling required, mean a re-edit of each video might take up another 12 hours of work.

Thanks again,

David

[Bob Cole]

[David See] “Whose fault is this? The client because they didn’t really provide enough information on the production in the first place, or ours because we didn’t ask enough questions?”

Yours. If the initial job was a shoot, you should have drawn the line before the editing began. Once you get on a slippery slope, it’s hard to stop sliding.

(It’s not the client’s fault – HIS client is his own company. The client gets to be a hero inside the company, because he found a
great, inexpensive supplier, and every time he grinds you a little more, that’s just another sign that he’s doing his job. He isn’t loyal to his vendors, as your predecessor found out.)

Solution? If you’re too desperate, and feel as if you need to hold onto this client at any cost, there is none. But the only way you’ll be treated with respect is to show self-respect. I just fell into a similar situation, and as soon as I got the picture, I called the client and said, “Whoa! This is more than we discussed. We need to talk about this.” That worked.

Good luck. And the point about your reputation within the company is key: you have to be polite, but you have to be firm, or you’ll either lose the whole account, or the whole account won’t be worth having.

Bob C

[David Rodney]

Hey Bob, thanks for the insight.

The original job was to cover the event – and the obvious outcome would have been to edit that into something they could utilise. I was expecting a DVD, but the separate files for their intranet was acceptable. JUST.

I guess I have to wait to receive the list o changes before jumping to any conclusions. As I said, I am bewildered at what they can have changed, because the whole shoot/production was so straight-forward. Just like recording an event for prosperity.

I guess the only thing they can change is the presentation of each clip such as titles/music/branding etc. But this will still equate to edit and one-hour render for each of the 6 clips.

I think at this point, the time to say “Whoa, this is more than we discussed” will be if he comes back with an unreasonable list of required changes. This will also save face with the others I have worked with in this company already and charged more for their jobs. FOr them, I will have to be ready to answer their questions as to why their jobs cost more, too!

What I have learned here is to not be fooled by “We need this done quickly, so we don’t have time to formalise quotes” and clearly state what they will get for the money I have agreed to and any more work will cost more money.

Cheers and thanks for taking the time to respond, Bob.

[Shane Ross]

“We don’t have that in our budget…” Well then, they can’t expect all that much, can they? That comment really ticks me off. And leads me to want to e-mail people this video…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2a8TRSgzZY

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD…don’t miss it.
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[David Rodney]

I think I was a little too laid-back in this situation because of the ease of dealing with the other department previously. That department has never asked me to quote and has never questioned my invoices. Mind you, I know I am much cheaper than those they were using before.

I was also probably taken for a ride believing that all they had to spend was what they said. I should have, at that point, stuck to my original quote and stipulated what they got for that amount, because I know I am SO much cheaper than others they have used.

Yep, I blew it. Never again, however. Now all I have to do is work out how I can avoid being taken further down the track of being ripped off on this little ride I am being taken on.

Again, I will have to wait for their requested changes before I can make judgement. “Some changes” might meant two, it might mean 30. Let’s wait and see.

I mean, it might all be horribly innocent…the client perhaps could just believe any changes take very little time….

Then again, maybe not.

[Bob Cole]

[David See] “Again, I will have to wait for their requested changes before I can make judgement. “Some changes” might meant two, it might mean 30″

NO! You believe that you have already given away a day of your time. The time to draw the line is NOW. You should charge extra for ANY change. Think of it as “Client Education.” They simply don’t understand about rendering, etc., unless you tell them. And they won’t CARE about rendering, until you tell them what it costs them. Costs THEM, not you.

They – don’t – care – about – you. That’s YOUR job.

Bob C

[David Rodney]

All good points, thank you.