Avid and FCP

[Steve Clark]

Daniel,
I’m in broadcast & I havn’t worked on a totally stable editor since the Sony BVE910. The BVE9100 had problems, the DNE2000’s had problems, Avid MC Meridian had problems, Newscutter Adrenaline had lots of problems (but got better). Right now I work with PC NC Adrenaline X2, a NC Adrenaline HD and MC Adrenaline HD on Unity. Guess what, every now & then I still run into problems. But I know this, with Avid, there’s never been a job I didn’t think I could do, there’s never been a job that I thought I could do better or faster on another editor (apart from in real time on a 9100), and I’ve never lost more than 20 min of work due to a crash, and nothing that was a show stopper. We used MC Adrenaline X5, Airspeed X2 on Unity with Interplay for the F1 GP this year – worked like a dream. File transferred our cut pieces to EVS Xfile for on-air replay. I don’t even know if a setup like that is possible with FCP. Just finished work on a job where we recorded 12 camera ISO’s on HDCAM. The production company got in a brand new HD FCP system for the project that we heard was dropping frames on capture, a wee bit frustrating for them with all that footage to get in. But to be fair, this comany has turned around some really nice high-end projects on FCP. Neither system is perfect, even with an expensive service contract. Both will bring times of utter frustration. So I think it comes down to what you want to do with it. If you’re mainly working on one system in a small group, then until recently, I would have said maybe FCP has too big a cost advantage to overlook. But for really big scalable shared jobs and live production the choice has never been anything other than Avid. I also look at it this way, now that the competition is heating up, which one has the most to loose if they get it wrong.

[Gabe Cotto]

I just wanted to clear a couple things up here.

1. If you run the latest version of Avid MC on a PC there are RAM limitations.

Reason:
The current version of Avid MC cannot run on 64bit versions of Window. Which means you can only run Avid MC on a 32bit Windows OS that only supports 4gigs of RAM, but only 3.5 is accessible. That can cause problems if your an editor who likes to go between Avid, After Effects, Photoshop, and Illustrator on any given day. All of the these programs are RAM mongers, and cause your PC to freeze or start acting because, because it doesn’t have enough memory to complete the tasks your asking it to perform. Which also defeats the purpose of having a PC with dual core or quad core processors.

2.PC’s have memory leakage problems.

Reason and Clarification
Mac Pro logic boards, processors, and RAM configurations are not the same as PC’s. Hardware manufacturers maybe the same in most instances, but the engineering is not the same as a PC. Nay sayers should attempt to build a Mac Pro, or even a PowerPC G5 if they disagree with what I’m saying. The parts are out there, but they are pricey. Window’s operating systems do a poor job of managing applications that are RAM extensive, that’s why PC users have to reset their machines several times a week. PC users have been reseting their machines for so long and so often, that they assume its normal and not a problem. Switch to a Mac and you’ll see what I’m talking about. The latest Mac Pro’s can utilize more than 30 gigs of RAM. Although, the average editor would never need to use that much. Since I crossed over from PC to a Mac, I have only had to reset my G5 three times in two and half years.

Thank you for offering suggestions to help my shop’s Avid problems. We’ve already addressed most of them. I simply wanted to state that as far as FCP and Avid goes, both have their problems.

And as far as sharing Avid project files goes….

The process of consolidating and transferring files by using an external drive is extremely time consuming, non-cost effective, and defeats the purpose of having a highspeed network in your shop. FCP project sharing is fast, extremely easy to do, cost effective, and can be down over a network.

“Auto save is life.”

[Paul Allman]

These problems are beyond abnormal. Why have you not posted your system specs during any part of this thread? Avoiding the FCP forum has not served you well either, as you might have found answers that go a little further than those coming from your friends. If you are at a facility, get an engineer to look at your system. If not, do it yourself. Your problems have nothing to do with editing styles, or editing software. Your problems are smack in the OS.

Paul Allman

[Gabe Cotto]

I see what this has turned into, Avid vs FCP round one-million-and-one. And since alot Avid users run on PC’s we have the classic, PC vs Mac battle. These are always fun.

The PC Memory Problem
The problem here isn’t the hardware, its the operating system. Despite being a memory resource hog, Windows 32 bit operating systems are limited in terms of the sheer amount of resources they can be fed. Couple that with the 4 GB of RAM 32 bit Window operating systems are limited too, and you have a major problem. Sure you can work between Avid, PS, and AE, for a period of time on a PC. But eventually Windows will become over-run with too much data and loose track of files it has loaded into RAM. That means those files won’t be removed, and they’ll sit there and bog down your computer. That’s usually why people end up restarting their machines. Because its memory is bogged down with files that don’t need to be processed. The best way to avoid this problem on a PC is to limit the number of applications you run at once. But as every editor knows, that is not productive and slows creativity.

Meanwhile, OSX can handle multiple streams of information without so much as hiccuping, largely because it has less processing going on in the background, and OSX on a Mac Pro isn’t limited to just 3.5 GB of usable RAM. On a Mac Pro you can have up to 32 GB of RAM, although I’m sure we can all agree that’s a bit much. Obviously HD files take longer to render in AE, but that should not effect your ability to use FCP at the same time. If you have enough RAM installed (I suggest 5 GB min) and your running a multi-core Mac, you should be able to do both without a problem.

Avid vs FCP Round 1,000,001
First I need to say that I was wrong when I said you couldn’t mix formats. I was told this by one of my superiors, however he recently explained to me that he “does not want me to mix formats unless a client specifically asks for it.” I’ve only been using Avid a few months, and never tried to mix HD and SD, or 16×9 and 4×3. I’ve been converting formats depending on what the client wants. I apologize for my ignorance on that issue.

With that said, both FCP and Avid have their issues. The ones I mentioned in my previous posts are some I’ve had with Avid. Its good to know that these aren’t common, and are most likely isolated problems. I’m sure some are caused by user errors, and some are software/hardware related, But needless to say they are still problems unique to Avid and/or PC’s. Now as far as Avid goes its been around along time and its showing its years.

The FCP graphical user interface is what makes it more of a creative editing tool, then a “cutting” tool like Avid MC. In Avid it takes one or two more steps to add an effect, trim or extend a clip, and select clips that need to be moved in a timeline then it does in FCP. Which is a lot of unneeded work.

Effects:
In Avid you have to step in and out to apply more then one effect to a clip, plus you have to be in effect mode to do any keyframing. In FCP there is a filter tag on the preview window for the clip that lists all of the effects and its parameters. You don’t have to enter a new mode to see what’s there, just click on the tab and boom they’re there.

Trimming:
Again you have to enter “trim mode” to extend or trim a clip, and make sure only the tracks you want to “trim” are selected. Absolutely pointless. In FCP you can do this right in the timeline without having to do anything but put the arrow on the clip you want to trim or extend, and then click and drag.

Moving Clips:
In Avid if you wan to select a clip and move it, you have to be in segment mode, click the top of the timeline (and no where else), and then drag from left to right only. If you drag from right to left, you enter “trim mode.” All of these “rules” need to be followed just to move a clip. In FCP pro its very simple. Click anywhere in the timeline you want with arrow, and drag the direction you want, left, right it doesn’t matter.

Those differences make FCP a more intuitive program to use, which really can make editing a lot more efficient and allows more time for creative thinking. Not hitting all of those buttons on your keyboard that you would have using Avid MC really adds up. It can be the difference between a good transition and a great transition.

Final Cut Studio: The Creative Edge
Avid MC is an over-priced stand alone cutting software program with effect plug-ins. Final Cut Studio is a seamless editing, motion graphic design, sound mixing/editing, and color correcting package. Apple’s Motion has a way to go before its anywhere near as good as After Effects, but its still a powerful program, and works seamlessly with FCP. Avid MC has the Marque Tool. If you have extensive audio mixing or recording to do. FCP Studio has Soundtrack Pro. Avid MC has nothing. A lot of Avid editors don’t think of these other applications as part of FCP, because Avid is a stand alone program. But you can’t think that way with FCP. Motion, Soundtrack Pro, and Color are all extensions of FCP and help make it a great creative tool. FCP is the foundation, while the other FCPS applications are the building blocks.

Okay, I think I’ve said my peace. I hope no one is offended by any of this. I know that everyone has their preference. I am obviously still learning the ropes with Avid, and have found it to be an expensive and stubborn program. But it does get the job done, and I am looking forward to getting to know it better.

Until Round 1,000,002

GC

“Auto save is life.”

[Paul Harb]

FINALLY A VOICE OF REASON……YOU HIT IT ON THE HEAD….THIS IS A STROKE JOB AND THIS FORUM EATS THAT STUFF UP……YEAH…..WE USE AVID, IT IS THE BEST, WE ARE SMARTER……blah blah blah…….I use both regularly, they both have pluses and minuses, are we not editors here? Do you guys own stock in Avid or something??? I have learned not to be a slave to ANY editing platform and worry about knowing ALL the tools, and getting better at my CRAFT is my only motive…….I can write you a HUGE list of things that are lame about both Avid and FCP……a HUGE list, and anyone that uses both (really uses them in a professional enviroment, and is honest, knows the same thing…..these are computer programs you guys…..period…..learn your craft…..rant over…..

Paul

Paul Harb-Producer/Director
Wrong Beach Multimedia
Dual 3.2 GHz Quad/10.5.2/4GIG RAM/FCP 6.0.2/QT 7.4.1