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Apple engineers versus an editor’s ability to set persistent in to out points in their footage.
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[David Lawrence] ” That’s not what I necessarily want to do at the time. “
I understand. Every software requires work arounds. This is one of them in fcpx if the f button doesn’t work.
[David Lawrence] “We set In/outs constantly as a means of setting up the next edit. Hundreds of times during a session. It’s very specific to the immediate context. It’s a tool and nothing more. Aindreas is exactly right. If every in/out has to be marked as a favorite, than favorites become completely meaningless.”
I don’t see it that way, so I’m the weird one.
[David Lawrence] “Like I said earlier, the distinction between range and in/out is subtle and one that is easily lost on non-editors — and just to be clear, I’m defining non-editors as those who spend less than 90% of their time cutting. I don’t know any advanced editor who thinks about an edit in terms of ranges. It’s all about the cut. In/outs are about marking the cut and taking action right now, in context. It’s a different way of seeing that comes from years of experience.”
The area between a range, and an in/out is essentially the same isn’t it? Why does it always have to be so different? Yes, it operates a bit differently, but the idea of marking an in/out or a range, even three point editing, is pretty much the same in x as 7. Really. I guess it just doesn’t bother me. I find it useful, and X actually works much better than 7 as its faster than using extended makers which are great, but very slow. Set marker, play, extend marker (option tilde) When I go back to that marker later, shift up, in, shift down, out, f10 (or 11 or whatever I need).
With x it’s in, out, f.
To clear the favorites, select whole clip ‘c’, then hit ‘u’.
When going back to that clip, I click on the little green line, or find the favorite from the list. The in and out points are then selected, and I assemble, or add to the end, or attach, or whatever I need. It’s very very easy and I don’t mind it. Then in and outs have been saved since the last time I touched them. It could be seven days from now, it could be seven minutes from now. The ins and the outs remain.
[David Lawrence] “I don’t see any reason why in/outs and the favorite/keywording system couldn’t co-exist. I also have a background in programming (it’s been a while but still) and I disagree with Hodgetts’ assessment. I think it’s a UI decision, not a technical one.”
Perhaps they could. I don’t know. It seems to would create a mess of a cache. Since you can’t have overlapping favorites, how could you have an overlapping auto-favorite? Seems messy.
what is needed is range based exporting from the Project (Or Event). That in and out is sorely needed.
I’d much rather have the audio editing get fixed then worry about hitting the f key. It sjust not a big deal, and contrary to what you and Andy argue for, persistent ins and outs do exist in fcpx, you just have to learn to use them.
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[Craig Seeman] “It “auto favorites” ONLY when one moves to another clip. It doesn’t replace the act of favoriting. It’s an additional method to favorite. When you get back to the clip, if you don’t want to retain the Favorite you select U just as one might hit Shift X to clear in/out in FCP7. If you don’t hit U it remains in your Favorites. In FCP7 if you don’t hit Shift X that persists as well. One might even make Auto Favorite a Preference Option to be used by those who want a Range to be persistent.”
But this implies you only want one favorite, or marked range per clip? I think that fcpx offers a better way with allowing more than one in/out range to be marked/saved and recalled very easily upon return to that clip.
How would fcpx then keep track of what you marked earlier, and what is now selected? You can’t have overlapping favorites now, so this would mean this auto favorite would simply delete the work I have done earlier when marking favorties.
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[Jeremy Garchow] “How would fcpx then keep track of what you marked earlier, and what is now selected? You can’t have overlapping favorites now, so this would mean this auto favorite would simply delete the work I have done earlier when marking favorties.”
I actually think it’s pretty easy from a UI standpoint. All they have to do is make the yellow range area stay put one you set it. Clicking outside a range should not turn the range off or select the entire clip as it does now. Leave that decision to the editor. Simple. Or just add brackets or some other visual indicator to the object. It’s not a big deal.
The problem as I see it is that the UI designers tried to combine range selection with marking in/out. To an engineer, they may seem to be the same thing, but they’re not.
[Jeremy Garchow] “what is needed is range based exporting from the Project (Or Event). That in and out is sorely needed.”
Yes!
[Jeremy Garchow] “‘I’d much rather have the audio editing get fixed then worry about hitting the f key. It sjust not a big deal, and contrary to what you and Andy argue for, persistent ins and outs do exist in fcpx, you just have to learn to use them.”
Agree multi-track audio is a priority. It’s currently a mess and I’m curious how they’ll fix it. I have a couple hunches but we’ll have to wait and see. The big question will it be better than anything we’ve seen before.
[Jeremy Garchow] “contrary to what you and Andy argue for, persistent ins and outs do exist in fcpx, you just have to learn to use them.”
So are you saying this is true for Larry Jordan as well?
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David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
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[David Lawrence] “I actually think it’s pretty easy from a UI standpoint. All they have to do is make the yellow range area stay put one you set it. Clicking outside a range should not turn the range off or select the entire clip as it does now. Leave that decision to the editor. Simple. Or just add brackets or some other visual indicator to the object. It’s not a big deal.”
So this means you add yet another, for lack of a better word, paradigm.
I don’t want my marked favorites deleted. So this in and out would need to not compete with favorites. Right now, they are related.
Can you please explain to me this razor thin subtlety or marking in and out vs marking a range? The end result is the same?
[David Lawrence] “So are you saying this is true for Larry Jordan as well?”
I don’t know what you mean by this….
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[Jeremy Garchow] “I don’t want my marked favorites deleted. So this in and out would need to not compete with favorites. Right now, they are related.”
Only if you hit the F-key. I’m just suggesting that the specified range can be made sticky. It’s not the same as saving it.
[Jeremy Garchow] “Can you please explain to me this razor thin subtlety or marking in and out vs marking a range? The end result is the same?”
It’s a different editorial emphasis and intent. If I’m selecting a range, my focus is on the range of content. I may want to stash it and favorites/keywords are a great tool for that.
When I mark in/out, I’m thinking primarily of the cut — the transition points. I’m thinking cut, play thru, cut, but I really don’t care about the stuff in the middle. Yes it is subtle. It took years of practice but when I noticed I was thinking this way, I also noticed my editing had jumped to whole different level, vastly better than before.
[Jeremy Garchow] “I don’t know what you mean by this….”
From Larry’s latest blog post:
“I asked when Apple would support retaining In and Out (Start / End) markers in clips in the Event Browser. They refused to comment, but stressed that while these were the four features they were announcing, these four would not be the only features released. Retaining Ins and Outs on clips is SO useful, I will continue to bang the drum for Apple to add these.”
By your reasoning, since Larry hasn’t fully embraced your suggested workarounds, it must mean that he hasn’t spent time to properly learn the tool and is stuck in old ways of thinking. I don’t think you really believe this. Why do you think he finds it SO useful?
_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
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[Jeremy Garchow] “Can you please explain to me this razor thin subtlety or marking in and out vs marking a range?”
it’s not razor thin bud. retained in out points are exactly that and no more – they are – precisely – cut point marks – tagging a range and ascribing it a keyword or favourite moniker is a different action – you are sending a range/subclip to either a keyword collection, or a favourites list. that is an action you perform using the in out marks.
Put another way way, the in out points form the basis of any number of actions – edits to timeline, tagging, basic mental notation – but if you click off the clip in FCPX by accident – you will be unable to perform any of those actions because the application has immediately dumped the in out points once you select another clip – in that sense, you have one chance to do anything with in out points in FCPX, they cannot independently persist – it is not so in any other editing application.
this application, as an editing application. needs to be able to retain in out points on a clip without the process of packaging a range off to a keyword collection or a favourites collection.
I’m going to go full Bill Davies on you here Jeremy:
Simple as that.
Boom.
david referenced Larry Jordan because he specifically requested that Apple look into retaining in out points without the user being required to tag the current in out points into a favourite or other tag. Also there are other people on this thread who would like to see this basic functionality re-introduced into FCPX.
https://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos
http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics -
[David Lawrence] “Only if you hit the F-key. I’m just suggesting that the specified range can be made sticky. It’s not the same as saving it.”
I see. You’re proposing to not mark the range, like a favorite physically marks the range in the thumbnail.
As soon as you touch that clip though, your old range is gone.
[David Lawrence] “It’s a different editorial emphasis and intent. If I’m selecting a range, my focus is on the range of content. I may want to stash it and favorites/keywords are a great tool for that.
When I mark in/out, I’m thinking primarily of the cut — the transition points. I’m thinking cut, play thru, cut, but I really don’t care about the stuff in the middle. Yes it is subtle. It took years of practice but when I noticed I was thinking this way, I also noticed my editing had jumped to whole different level, vastly better than before.”
I’m sorry, David. I’m totally lost here. I am reading this as it took years of practice you use in and out?
[David Lawrence] “By your reasoning, since Larry hasn’t fully embraced your suggested workarounds, it must mean that he hasn’t spent time to properly learn the tool and is stuck in old ways of thinking. I don’t think you really believe this. Why do you think he finds it SO useful?”
Oh boy. Please stop putting words in my mouth.
The issue here, is that persistent in and out points do exist in FCPX. You guys want some sort of temporary in and out system, analagous to fcp7, but don’t tell Andy that as it has nothing to do with EOL software.
I have no idea what Larry Jordan knows or doesn’t know. It’s all new software, and requires a different way of working sometimes. Maybe he doesnt like favorites, but if one could explain them as persistent in and out points by hitting the f key, maybe he’d have a listen? I would say that retaining in and out points in the Event is entirely possible, it just might not work like you expect it to work.
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[Jeremy Garchow] “I see. You’re proposing to not mark the range, like a favorite physically marks the range in the thumbnail.
As soon as you touch that clip though, your old range is gone.”
Yes, that’s essentially correct. It’s a different kind of marking. It’s not permanent in the same way as extended markers or favorite/keyword ranges. It’s specific to the context of the in-process edit. In other words, range shouldn’t disappear just because I clicked outside of it. What if I’m working fast and I accidentally click when I didn’t mean to. Poof, it’s gone. That’s lame.
[Jeremy Garchow] “I’m sorry, David. I’m totally lost here. I am reading this as it took years of practice you use in and out?”
No, in/outs were the first thing I learned about editing. I’m talking about a different way of seeing editorially. It’s the difference between seeing/feeling the cut while selecting vs defining and assembling content chunks then fine tuning after. In my experience, there’s a different mindset at work. Naturally, YMMV. I apologize for not explaining it very well. It’s really not about the tool, it’s a different way of seeing. Just out of curiosity, what percentage of your time would you say is exclusively devoted to creative editing?
[Jeremy Garchow] “Oh boy. Please stop putting words in my mouth.”
(Sigh) here are your words:
[Jeremy Garchow] “It’s obvious you haven’t tried this.
You should try it. Not just open a clip and hit f, but actually go through and entire edit that takes a week or more.
Learn the keyboard shortcuts. It’s not that bad, and perhaps might work differently than what you might be used to in whatever editing NLE you came from before fcpx.”
[Jeremy Garchow] “The issue here, is that persistent in and out points do exist in FCPX. You guys want some sort of temporary in and out system, analagous to fcp7, but don’t tell Andy that as it has nothing to do with EOL software. “
If as you say, it’s obvious that Aindreas hasn’t tried it and we need to get used to working differently, why wouldn’t that also be true for Larry, since he’s arguing strongly with Apple for real in/outs?
I’m just asking you to think about why this is important for a master trainer, experienced editor and FCPX supporter like Larry.
Aindreas and I are saying in/outs are different than a persistent favorite/keyword range. Favorites/keywords are great but they’re not a substitute. It has nothing to do with EOL FCP 7 or any other NLE. In/outs are a basic element of the grammar of editing.
Yes, in/outs contain a range, but they’re made with a different intention. There’s no need to keep them in an ever growing list. It makes the list cumbersome and meaningless. The fix is simple — just maintain the yellow selection area or add temporary brackets on objects until the editor intentionally decides to change them.
[Jeremy Garchow] “I have no idea what Larry Jordan knows or doesn’t know. It’s all new software, and requires a different way of working sometimes. Maybe he doesnt like favorites, but if one could explain them as persistent in and out points by hitting the f key, maybe he’d have a listen? I would say that retaining in and out points in the Event is entirely possible, it just might not work like you expect it to work.”
Funny that no matter how experienced the critic — whether it’s Larry Jordan or Oliver Peters — anyone who points out an obvious missing feature is still holding it wrong. Whatever.
_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl -
[Jeremy Garchow] “But this implies you only want one favorite, or marked range per clip? I think that fcpx offers a better way with allowing more than one in/out range to be marked/saved and recalled very easily upon return to that clip.”
No. This isn’t instead of the I/O F workflow. This is an additional method. It has no impact an other ranges I’ve created previously in the same clip.
Normally when organizing one might create keyword collections, smart collections, favorites of course. There’s are times in the decision making process where I select a range in the event browser but, before making the edit, I either find myself going to the timeline or, sometimes, to another clip in the event browser to check something. At that point you’ve lost your range in the clip you initially selected in the event browser. Sure you could remember to this the F key but all to often, some of us have a tendency to check something someplace else and lose the range. The problem is in those situations, hitting the F key, puts a mental brake, an interrupt, in my thought processes.
Hitting the F is fine for organizing but there are times when editing, it’s an abrupt interruption.
AutoFavorite is an additional way to create a Favorite (saved range aka saved I/O). It allows you to mark the range, move to something else and by moving to something else, that range is favorited.
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Not retaining your last marked in and out point is just irritating, I know the theory and why they didn’t choose to factor it in but it still seems a little silly.
Steve Connor
“FCPX Professional”
Adrenalin Television
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