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Apple engineers versus an editor’s ability to set persistent in to out points in their footage.
Phillip Hodgetts wrote a piece echoing some of Larry Jordan’s NAB takeaway – from Apple’s near, but not quite at, NAB hotel suite sessions.
https://www.philiphodgetts.com/2012/04/some-final-cut-pro-x-data-points/
The comments were pretty interesting – full disclosure said bernstein, I actually was one of the ranters as swimtwobirds – frothing about the statement regarding Apple winning market share dominance. Phillip Hodgetts had posted that, based on his reading of the report:
“Final Cut Pro X – in the last 12 months – has gained the dominant position in the Pro market.”
if I’d been eating cereal, it might have gone flying at that moment. Instead I ranted at him.
Preamble and whatever – but there is an extraordinarily interesting exchange further down –
fantastic read at the link above – but highlights: (this will make this post massive)
Andy Mees:
given the database model and its ability to store multiple marked I/O’s within any given clip as favourites, then it would seem that retention of the (currently selected) in and out point would be supremely easy to implement if there was a will to do so … it is no more than an internal transparent retention of those currently selected points as a favorite (the current favorite if you will). On the face of it its doesn’t seem like it would be much of a stretch.
Cheers
AndyPhillip hodgetts:
Actually it would be more difficult than you think as it’s a desire to a throwback of a design that only allowed one in and out on any give clip. FCP X has unlimited in and out via keywords.
Therefore an old-style I and O retained would be a backward step. As Greg said, if it’s important range to be retained, throw a favorite or keyword on it.
And non-programmers generally have a very bad idea of how much work something is to implement.Andy Mees:
“And non-programmers generally have a very bad idea of how much work something is to implement.”
No doubt. But fwiw I am one (or have played one on TV).
“Therefore an old-style I and O retained would be a backward step.”
That’s more bizarre non-logic Philip. The idea of a persistent marked range (you can call it a favourite if you like) that I outlined above is far from a step backward, it simply provides additional, practical and (judging from user reaction) expected functionality using the model that is already in place. It only requires the will to implement it on Apple’s part.Phillip Hodgetts:
A single persistent I/O would get in the way and conflict with all the other ways of setting persistent I/O – favorites and Keyword ranges. I just can’t believe people are so backward looking. me: (!!!!!)Andy Mees:
Totally understand that you have your own working preferences Philip. Would you be willing to describe exactly how, for you, allowing a transparently persistent I/O would get in the way, and in what way (let alone all other ways) it would conflict with current methods of making range based selections?Phillip Hodgetts:
From the programming point of view you’d have to create a third category to go with “Favorite” and “Keyword Range” that would be “Persistent I/O” points. How do they relate to the other two? Are you prepared for a complete rebuild of the database structure to accommodate it?What happens when a Favorite and I/O range coincide (there’s an existing bug related to two keyword ranges covering exactly the same frames losing notes, for example).
In my opinion it’s a throwback thought for people who haven’t yet made the mental transition to FCP X
Andy Mees:
Is it your feeling that Apple’s FCPX designers have built the entire FCPX database model in a rigid or inflexible (and unrelational) manner?Phillip Hodgetts:
Andy, the more we’ve thought and talked about this, the more Greg and I are convinced that it is a deliberate decision to NOT have In and Out points. The more we’ve talked about it, the more we realize how impossible it would be to code around, but much more importantly how complex this would become for users.[[???]]
…Does FCP X edit the keyword range to the Project, or the In/Out range? Or some intersection of the two? When does I/O take precedence over a Favorite or keyword range?
It becomes an incredibly complex matrix of when one takes priority and in an app, from a company where the main focus is “simplify”, that would be anathema.The more we discussed it last night, the more obvious it was that this is a deliberate decision and that it is the right decision.
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super long post but madly interesting exchange? I was glued – I have edited it a bit but hopefully not Murdoch style.
Phillip Hodgetts holds a spruce cleanliness of basic software logical approach in common with Apple –
my own question would be whether editing practitioners require (or asked) anyone to provide them with such an unannounced sandblasting?
https://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos
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75 Replies
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You hit i, you hit o, you hit f. Or you drag out a range, you hit f.
That range will stay with that clip forever, and you can have more than one favorited range per clip, and that clip can be represented across multiple keyword collections. That is, in my book, more persistent than anything, unless of course you delete that favorite on every instance everywhere.
End of story?
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You left out my comment that I posted there which I thought would be an easier fix.
AutoFavorite
Click on something else (actions that would normally remove the range) and it saves the last selected range (In/Out) as a Favorite. This wouldn’t have impact on the database at all.BTW I understand Larry Jordan also brought this up with Apple
I asked when Apple would support retaining In and Out (Start / End) markers in clips in the Event Browser. They refused to comment, but stressed that while these were the four features they were announcing, these four would not be the only features released. Retaining Ins and Outs on clips is SO useful, I will continue to bang the drum for Apple to add these.
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[Jeremy Garchow] “you can have more than one favorited range per clip, and that clip can be represented across multiple keyword collections. “
yes, maybe, but not really.
If you have an editing system, with objects entering into it that you apprehend – either they are entities that you recall prior actions to, or they are not.
I think FCPX is very clever, but I’m not sure the intellectual throughput refers to, or respects, the chain of events regarding specific video object entry.
FCPX feels like it wants to disperse all object entries into an undifferentiated tag data cloud.
that’s interesting, but I find it a cold paradigm as an editor.
you can argue that it is marvellous in a GTD application, but I believe it is a miscue in a narrative assembly environment.
https://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos
http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics -
[waves hand]
You don’t need persistent in/out markers…
These aren’t the reference points you’re looking for…
Move along.
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Phillip’s technical objections aren’t very sensible (I do write code). But I do see the argument he’s making. You’re not quite setting in/out points in FCP X the way you are in FCP 7. You’re selecting a clip range, on which you can then perform various actions. This is the language the documentation uses, it’s how things are visually presented, and it’s compatible with the ‘primary’ way in which such ranges are specified — by dragging. Hell, it’s right there in the menus. The menu items for which the ‘I’ and ‘O’ keys are shortcuts are not ‘Mark In’ and ‘Mark Out’, as in FCP 7. They’re ‘Set Selection Start’ and ‘Set Selection End’.
People keep asking why FCP X doesn’t preserve in and out points, but the app doesn’t acknowledge such a concept in the first place. And if you ask instead why FCP X doesn’t preserve selections, well, that’s standard behavior — most apps don’t preserve selections when you open/close a document or navigate away from a view and back.
Perhaps there would be less confusion on this point had Apple not kept the ‘I’ and ‘O’ keyboard shortcuts. They could have used ‘S’ and ‘E’ or something (for ‘start’ and ‘end’).
Mind you, the fact that apps don’t normally preserve selections doesn’t mean Apple couldn’t make an exception for FCP X — it wouldn’t really interfere with anything fundamental. But it does explain why Apple didn’t think this was necessary. Perhaps if enough people harass them on this subject they’ll add it anyway.
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[Aindreas Gallagher] “yes, maybe, but not really.
If you have an editing system, with objects entering into it that you apprehend – either they are entities that you recall prior actions to, or they are not.
I think FCPX is very clever, but I’m not sure the intellectual throughput refers to, or respects, the chain of events regarding specific video object entry.”
Ok. Then define your object? The way you present it, your object is perfect. It’s a clip that you have captured from tape, or a clip that perhaps you have logged and transferred with an initial set of ins and outs.
What if you don’t have perfect “objects”? What if I have a group of objects, I want to make a new and redefined object, and then I want to segment that with more favorites?
What if the objects I receive are already one huge and flattened movie that I want to break up in to new objects?
[Aindreas Gallagher] “FCPX feels like it wants to disperse all object entries into an undifferentiated tag data cloud.”
Only if you want to. You don’t have to tag anything. You can keep everything on Event level and add multiple (and “persistent”) in and out points (ranges) to the clips. Or you can text tag if that’s your game, but you certainly don’t have to.
[Aindreas Gallagher] “you can argue that it is marvellous in a GTD application, but I believe it is a miscue in a narrative assembly environment.”
OMG what’s a GTD? And why couldn’t you use favorites in a narrative? Do you ever use extended markers in FCP <= 7?
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[Jeremy Garchow] “”you can argue that it is marvellous in a GTD application, but I believe it is a miscue in a narrative assembly environment.”
OMG what’s a GTD? “
dude, jeremy sorry – it’s you, as in one bud, i just refuse to say one because I’m Irish mate – whenever I say you in that fashion, it’s a thought experiment, there is no you!
(although I am bitterly serious about data object entry and the need for a simplistic IO memory, spatial arrangement etc – needless to say ) 🙂
https://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos
http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics -
[Jeremy Garchow] “You hit i, you hit o, you hit f. Or you drag out a range, you hit f.
That range will stay with that clip forever, and you can have more than one favorited range per clip, and that clip can be represented across multiple keyword collections. That is, in my book, more persistent than anything, unless of course you delete that favorite on every instance everywhere.
End of story?”
Nope. 😉
Favorites/keyword collections are a powerful/flexible sub clipping system. I think it’s one of FCPX’s best features. But marking an in/out point is different than subclipping. In/outs are persistent, but temporary, like the clipboard. They don’t need to be added to a subclip list and kept forever. It’s a subtle difference, but the distinction is important and the utility is real.
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David Lawrence
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[David Lawrence] “Nope. ;)”
You can’t triple stamp a double stamp.
[David Lawrence] “Favorites/keyword collections are a powerful/flexible sub clipping system. I think it’s one of FCPX’s best features. But marking an in/out point is different than subclipping. In/outs are persistent, but temporary, like the clipboard. They don’t need to be added to a subclip list and kept forever. It’s a subtle difference, but the distinction is important and the utility is real.”
While I see how you can associate favorites with subclips, and when you sort the Event by favorites it gives you some semblance of subclips, they don’t have to be. We should also disassociate favorites from keywords. They work very differently.
How do you define persistent? From what I understand of the word, temporary does not fit.
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[David Lawrence] “It’s a subtle difference, but the distinction is important and the utility is real.”
I would have to say amen.
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