An NLE change from FCP poll results

[David Lawrence]

[Charlie Austin] “FWIW, in addition to keyframing, you can also slip audio tracks by subframes in FCP 7. However, you do need to go to the viewer to do it.”

Yep, cool feature!

[Charlie Austin] “The great thing about X s you can do it in the timeline, which is really nice. In this instance X really is unambiguously better than Legacy.”

I unambiguously agree. 😉

[Charlie Austin] “Also FWIW, I rarely use the mouse to trim in X. Well, other than key framing and dragging fade handles… things like that. Also, contrary to popular belief, you can select, and trim edits on multiple (connected) clips at once if the cuts are on the same frame….”

Cool. It’s all about whatever works.

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David Lawrence
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[Charlie Austin]

[David Lawrence] “It’s fun pushing back. Feel free to disagree anytime. It’s all good.”

Fair enough. 🙂

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~”It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools.”~

[David Lawrence]

[Jeremy Garchow] “It could be better in FCPX, yes, other NLEs are better, but it’s not like there’s nothing.”

Not saying there’s nothing, just that there’s nothing equivalent.

[Jeremy Garchow] “Plus, I seem to experience editors that don’t need the speed do not muck with keyboard shortcuts, it is all mouse all the time and all menus all the time.

Editors that need to be fast use the shortcuts.”

Speed is one factor but I was talking more about a specific approach to trimming. I use the mouse all the time. I switch to the keyboard to trim because it’s the only way I can get the control, precision, and realtime feedback I need.

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David Lawrence
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[Jeremy Garchow]

[David Lawrence] “Not saying there’s nothing, just that there’s nothing equivalent. “

Well, is there a tool just like Avid or, now Pr? No.

There’s the precision editior, if thats your bag, and a big list of shortcuts. The timeline itself is dynamic.

Did you really use the dynamic otrim window in fcp7?

[David Lawrence] ”
Speed is one factor but I was talking more about a specific approach to trimming. I use the mouse all the time. I switch to the keyboard to trim because it’s the only way I can get the control, precision, and realtime feedback I need.”

You can cut by feel with play and cut, you know, like the old days.

You don’t, necessarily, need a dynamic trimmer to be a better editor, that’s all I’m saying. I was going against the platitudes of “the best” editors using dynamic trimming.

There are other ways to cut by feel using nothing but super basic input controls.

[Herb Sevush]

Hope you don’t mind me jumping in to offer my perspective.

[Jeremy Garchow] “Did you really use the dynamic trim window in fcp7?”

Never

[Jeremy Garchow] “You can cut by feel with play and cut, you know, like the old days. You don’t, necessarily, need a dynamic trimmer to be a better editor, that’s all I’m saying. I was going against the platitudes of “the best” editors using dynamic trimming.”

I’ve never used it, didn’t care that PPro copied it. Perhaps that was why I was somewhat underwhelmed with PPro 6. Not saying I wouldn’t grow to like it if I used an NLE that featured it, but for me it’s simply another case of a solution to a problem I wasn’t having.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf

[Aindreas Gallagher]

[David Lawrence] “JKL dynamic trimming turns the keyboard into a control surface for trimming. It enables editors to manipulate and judge pacing and feel, on-the-fly in real time. The benefits are major and real.
“

fear not – Chris will carefully avoid that one.

Also, er sorry for not actually putting up a better JKL trim example – i picked a google quickie – I do actually have a fairly revelatory run through I used to familiarise myself initially – buried somewhere in delicious bookmarks…

https://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics

[David Lawrence]

[Jeremy Garchow] “Well, is there a tool just like Avid or, now Pr? No. “

True, but I’m talking specifically about the trim tools. In Hollywood, Avid trim tools are the gold standard but with Pr CS6, Adobe has caught up. Avid editors I’ve talked to are impressed and paying attention.

[Jeremy Garchow] “There’s the precision editior, if thats your bag, and a big list of shortcuts. The timeline itself is dynamic. “

If the trim tools in FCPX are so much better than Legacy, why is the “Precision Editor” even necessary? What specific problem does it solve? Do you use it much?

[Jeremy Garchow] “Did you really use the dynamic otrim window in fcp7?”

Once I discovered how it worked, absolutely. For every cut? Of course not — most of the time I still use the mouse. But for precise, detail trimming where a single frame makes a difference in feel, it’s great.

[Jeremy Garchow] “You don’t, necessarily, need a dynamic trimmer to be a better editor, that’s all I’m saying. I was going against the platitudes of “the best” editors using dynamic trimming. “

Agreed. I was just stating my experience and observations and pushing back against Chris’s pronouncements about dynamic trim tools. Look, I do color correction on every single piece I work on, but it’s not my main job or expertise. There’s a reason I don’t hang out in the DaVinci forums telling the experts there the future of their tools and workflows.

My point is that dynamic trim tools are popular with A-list editors for a reason. I didn’t fully appreciate why until I started using them myself. My personal experience is that using them literally changed my perception as an editor. I could feel myself working at a different level and could see the better results in my finished work. That’s just me. It doesn’t mean it’s true for everyone or that other types of tools can’t do this as well. As always, YMMV.

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David Lawrence
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[Jeremy Garchow]

[David Lawrence] “True, but I’m talking specifically about the trim tools.”

Wait. You are???

Just kidding, yes, I am fully aware that we are talking about trim tools.

[David Lawrence] “Avid editors I’ve talked to are impressed and paying attention. “

So they’d switch an entire system for a trim tool? Just curious.

[David Lawrence] “If the trim tools in FCPX are so much better than Legacy, why is the “Precision Editor” even necessary? What specific problem does it solve? Do you use it much? “

I did not use the ‘dynamic trimming’ in FCP7, I don’t use the Precision Editor in FCPX. I use the keyboard shortcut trim tools in FCPX, along with the magnetic timeline specifically the ] [ ‘ ; . , play stop rewind skim mouse, also adding an option or shift key to some of those.

In FCP7, I’d double click the clip to load it in the viewer from the timeline (so that the clip has the little sprocket marks), play, and then hit out and the clip in the timeline would have the adjusted out (or in).

I would have to be careful and play track tetris before hand as FCP7 hates when I try and override clips due to the clip collision rules. If I don’t, it tells me there’s a media limit. I try and tell it, it has its limits. It doesn’t respond, so I hit the out button a bunch of time to sound the warning bleep over and over in rapid succession. It makes me feel better, and then I go play track tetris and all is right with the world.

There is no equivalent for this in X either, which is really too bad as the magnetic non-collide rules would really help me out here.

So, I suffer for the art and deal with it.

Jeremy

[Steve Connor]

[Jeremy Garchow] “I don’t use the Precision Editor in FCPX. I use the keyboard shortcut trim tools in FCPX, along with the magnetic timeline specifically the ] [ ‘ ; . , play stop rewind skim mouse, also adding an option or shift key to some of those.”

Me too, dynamic trimming is useful, but when using FCPX with keyboard shortcuts it’s not that different and it certainly isn’t different enough to change the quality of my work.

As David said though YMMV

Steve Connor
‘It’s just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure”

[David Lawrence]

[Jeremy Garchow] “So they’d switch an entire system for a trim tool? Just curious.”

Not for the trim tool alone, but it’s a bigger deal than I think some people realize. Premiere still has a way to go but everything’s moving in the right direction. Once the big, well known issues are worked out, my gut says a lot of Avid editors will be *very* interested. From a few informal conversations with friends in LA, I get the sense everyone’s paying close attention to Adobe’s next move. I’m very curious to hear what DRW has to say from his year in the trenches.

[Jeremy Garchow] “I did not use the ‘dynamic trimming’ in FCP7, I don’t use the Precision Editor in FCPX. I use the keyboard shortcut trim tools in FCPX, along with the magnetic timeline specifically the ] [ ‘ ; . , play stop rewind skim mouse, also adding an option or shift key to some of those.”

Interesting that no one really seems to use the PE. Would love to hear from someone who does. I really am curious what people think it’s good for.

[Jeremy Garchow] “In FCP7, I’d double click the clip to load it in the viewer from the timeline (so that the clip has the little sprocket marks), play, and then hit out and the clip in the timeline would have the adjusted out (or in).

I would have to be careful and play track tetris before hand as FCP7 hates when I try and override clips due to the clip collision rules. If I don’t, it tells me there’s a media limit. I try and tell it, it has its limits. It doesn’t respond, so I hit the out button a bunch of time to sound the warning bleep over and over in rapid succession. It makes me feel better, and then I go play track tetris and all is right with the world.”

Wait, you do your trimming in FCP7 in the viewer? Really? I’m surprised. I’m sure you know the other ways. Why not on the timeline like you’re doing now in X?

I never trim in the viewer. I sometimes use it to set up IO points before adding a clip to the timeline, but I’m more likely to just drop a clip onto the timeline and set IO there. Most often, I use viewer to manipulate effects or motion settings, or do super-precise subframe audio key framing. I think the viewer kinda sucks for trimming so I trim directly in the timeline or in trim mode when I need to tweak critical pacing. If you’re doing most of your trimming in the viewer, I understand why you might be underwhelmed by the Legacy’s trim tools.

Maybe I’m weird or just used to it, but track Tetris isn’t something I even think about. I do it when needed before trimming and rarely get any clip collision warnings. It’s just part of the process. I’m with Aindreas on this. I like my fragile timeline and I like deciding for myself what to open up and move.

On a complex timeline like Charlie’s example, I’m not sure how much you really gain in FCPX. Instead of playing Tetris, you have to think about clip connection points. You may have to unscramble the vertical stacking of connected clips and/or re-trim audio. You still have to think about whether anything’s messed up downstream outside the window view. It’s still work. I prefer doing the set-up work first, knowing I’m making every decision, rather than figuring out what the timeline just did to my edit and fixing it afterwards.

[Jeremy Garchow] “There is no equivalent for this in X either, which is really too bad as the magnetic non-collide rules would really help me out here.”

So in X, clip collisions can still happen when trimming? Yikes!

_______________________
David Lawrence
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