1080/24p and KONA 2

[Gary Adcock]

[Fred Connors Jr] “The is a mention of 1080p under Dual Link in the above pdf, and only a mention of 1080psf 23.98 and 1080psf 24 for Video Inputs.”

Fred,
in the 1080i world there is only PSF. Sony did this” progressive segmented frame” to elongate the amount of time their interlaced technology would stay in the coming progressive world. PSF is treated by many as a “progressive format” ( mostly on the west coast
The only TRUELY progressive format in the Sony 1080 world is Dual Link.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation

[Ramona Howard]

Fred,

I found the information in the OEM products, under Xena2, which is the equivalent to the Kona2. (Xena is for the PC, Kona is for the Mac)

We have been doing 24p for quite awhile and up until the Kona2, used the Xena line of boards. Our latest systems used the K2 because the Xena2 was not out yet.(Our driver supports both Xena and Kona). Let me add that most of our clients are doing 24p and this would be an issue if the board/s were not capable.

I would suggest a call to AJA to confirm as I will do the same because your right the brochure does not have that information on it. We have seen no difference in what the two lines support and it may be just an oversight.

Life is never dull……….

Cheers,
Ramona

[Ramona Howard]

Gary,

I’ll try not to boch this up, forgive me if I do. This in laymans terms is how I understand it.

1080i(interlaced) the stream is passed down the wire at different rates, thus when it reaches the end and is displayed we see the offset or interlacing.

1080psf(progressive segmented)is passed down at the same rate but at different times, kinda like a pulse so that when it reaches the end you have segmented parts of the image but no offset, thus no visable interlacing.

1080p(progressive)The entire image is passed down the wire at the same time. As in the case of Dual Link, the Red and part of the green(I believe) is down one wire and the rest of the green and blue down the other.

Hope this helps a bit,

Cheers,
Ramona

[Ramona Howard]

Thought I would mix it up a bit more….

One thing to check out is: Do all Sony decks only pass psf, I think the answer is yes, and it may be worth the research to check out the other manufactures also.

It seems to have been a standard that has been passed down for generations that in order to display to a monitor psf was how it was to be done, that is until the SR and 4:4:4 came along.

I’m digging thru all of my deck information to see if the answer can reveal itself, although this may be one of those topics that is hard to get to the bottom of.

Cheers to all,
Ramona

[Gary Adcock]

[Ramona Howard] “One thing to check out is: Do all Sony decks only pass psf, I think the answer is yes, “

that is correct –
it is also my understanding that monitor playback for 1080psf is really 48i on everything but SR displays

[Ramona Howard] “It seems to have been a standard that has been passed down for generations that in order to display to a monitor psf was how it was to be done, that is until the SR and 4:4:4 came along”

Yeah – Sony realized that PSF was not going to be forced down the throat of hollywood so – 4:4:4 was the rebirth of Progressive for sony (editorial comment)

gary adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation

[Ramona Howard]

Cool, It’s nice when I understand this crazy stuff….

I will give you a call Monday, off for a weekend of fun.

Chow,
Ramona

[Gary Adcock]

[Ramona Howard] ”
Cool, It’s nice when I understand this crazy stuff….”

I don’t worry about it
me, I am just a parrot….

gary adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation

[Francois Stark]

[gary adcock] “the 1080P format for 4:4:4 Dual link content is a true progressive frame but data at that size is over 200megs per second and could NOT be sent over a single USB2 connection. Dual Link HD requires 2 HDSDI feeds to support it.”

Ok, nobody on this forum has answered this question: How do they propose getting more data than a single SDI link can handle through a 480Mbps USB 2 link?

I looked in the Reel stream forum and found this little gem:

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Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 4:09 pm Post subject: How does Andromeda squeeze 1540 x 990 x 36bpp through USB-2?

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By my calculations:

1540 pixels * 990 pixels * 36 bits-per-pixel * 24 frames/sec
= 1,317,254,400 bps = 1,317 Mbps

Which is much more than the 480 Mbps which USB-2 can handle.

What am I missing?

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Author Message
paparazzi

Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 6

Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 4:30 pm Post subject:

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Never mind… I think I have answered my own question:

If the 1540 x 990 resolution is achieved by shifting the green CCD half-a-pixel both horizontally and vertically, then the native resolution of each CCD is (approx):

1540/2 x 990/2 = 770 x 495 pixels

Which would make perfect sense for a camera which was originally designed to output 720 x 480 resolution!

So, 770 x 495 pixels x 36 bpp x 24 fps = 329 Mbps, which USB-2 could potentially handle.

The red and blue pixels would then be “combined” with the green pixels during post processing to create the 1540 x 990 output resolution.

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Author Message
Juan P. Pertierra
Dr. Frankenstein

Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 205
Location: West Lafayette, IN
Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 7:13 pm Post subject:

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There you go.

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I don’t buy this. First you half the vertical and horisontal resolution, squeeze it through USB2 and then MAGICALLY recombine to get a full resolution? At full 24p framerate? Continously? Who are they trying to fool? If it was so easy, why do the camera manufacturers not use it in the original products? Oops – forget I even asked. This sounds like a real quarter-res RGB solution to me – anybody remember the original Cinewave off-line resolutions? Anybody care to generate a serious headache in 10 minutes?

This is almost the same issue as I had with the AVID Adrenaline when it came out and AVID proclaimed the the adrenaline box included “the computing power of 10 three GHz Pentium-4’s”, and that’s why it could do so many real-time layers. Well, I figured out that they can not possible send more than two streams uncompressed through the firewire 400 to the Adrenaline box, yet the system does 10 streams in real time… Which means the processing all happened in the Host box, with only the uncompressed output stream being passed to the Adrenaline.

I don’t know why you keep discussing 24p versus 24PSF – both must have the same datarate, even though the data might be coming in a different sequence. The problem I have with this Reel Stream system is how they get the RGB 4:4:4 stream they are selling through USB2.

Regards
Francois

[Gary Adcock]

[Francois Stark] “I don’t know why you keep discussing 24p versus 24PSF – both must have the same datarate,”

No not necessarily the 24PSF format is only in 1920×1080, 24p can SD or HD or HDV. So they can have varying data rates.

But I want your question answered also Francois!

gary adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation

[Keith Hill]

When I started this thread. I was looking for an answer as to whether a DVCProHD 1080p codec existed for the Kona 2 or Decklink Cards that would allow me to monitor at the highest quality. Outside of Technicolor Creative’s modified codec there doesn’t seem to be one. I’m sure that will rectified soon one way or another.

As far as the discussion about the Real Stream Andromeda/SculptureHD system. Well, I’m a simple man and not as technically knowledgeable about the discussion that has broken out about whether their system is legit or not. As a owner of a DVX100A, and a supporter of the development of a system that would allow me to get images like that I’ve seen over the last year (especially from the current beta test that is going on), this technology represents a breakthrough of tremendous magnitude and importance for me and other indie filmmakers who want to maximize our investment in current equipment.

How they are doing this I have no idea. But, I have no idea how Serious Magic’s DV Rack does what it does also. It works though. SculptureHD represents the DVRack part of the Real-Stream system. By passing the compression scheme of my camera and sending raw images using their proprietary method, then using Quicktime inside of SculptorHD as the method for bringing that data into my G5 (my method for a workflow will be DVCProHD though I won’t be limited to that-thus the reason for the initial question at the head of this thread) I will be dealing with images that I can form into the aspect ratio of my choosing. I’ve seen frames up to 36bit in size from this thing (which to me would be a waste of bandwidth because I only see a need to go to 10 bit, BUT THE POTENTIAL of this – amazing. My camera is a DV25 camera. To get anything above this with the quality that I am seeing is amazing. Period. For a total of around 6k (3k for the camera when I bought it and approx 3k for the Real-stream system) I will be in possession of a mini-Varicam. I still will need things like micro35 Cinema Lens Adaptor (see https://www.redrockmicro.com/home.html ) and everything else that would go into a professional shoot (eg., lighting, dolly, etc.) . But, I will be renting some of those things and buying others as techonology continues to advance and come down in price.

Now, as far as questions that Francios has, I would encourage anyone that has questions to direct them to their forum (https://forum.reel-stream.com/index.php?sid=859cacbfc5f47355f2a26b993531f317 ). If you do a thorough search I’m sure you will find that your questions have probably been asked already. The Beta period is almost over and production of the product is underway. So, I expect that the folks that have been waiting for this to hit will be able to discuss it further in the future.

Keith Hill
https://www.LightedPath.biz
Dallas, TX
Final Cut Pro 5.0.2, Combustion (MAC-v3.0.4), DVD StudioPro 4 (v 3.0.2); MAC G5 (v10.4.2-Tiger) 2Ghz, 1.5 RAM