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Logic Pro X instead of FCP X for post audio – need advice.
Hey folks. I don’t have ProTools, but I have Logic Pro X
Now that we’ve gotten that out of the way, I thought I’d post a couple of questions/concerns here for those who have been in or are in my similar situation.
I am a longtime video editor who uses FCP X day in, day out. Although I know how to do mild audio work I a am not well versed in editing audio and all of the toolsets the likes of what one would do in ProTools and I’ve had the luxury of handing off that work to someone who does that.
I’ve been learning the hard way in FCP X applying filters and such (iZotope RX3 for example) with a video mindset only to cause my shiny new Mac Pro to run out of memory and treacherously slow managing audio filters and moving through the timeline, dealing with multichannel audio, etc.
I want to take that next step (and am in some ways am forced to) and go deeper with my post audio and audio workflow and wanted to know:
When do you decide to leave FCP X for audio – meaning, at what point is FCP X and it’s audio capabilities not good enough?
Are the audio filters in FCP X substandard compared to the ones in Logic Pro X (and ProTools for that matter) in quality and processing or is it more about parameter control; like the difference between using FCP X or Motion for certain work?
Is Logic Pro X really up to the task? I already have read countless threads from ProTools users, but I haven’t heard a lot (comparatively) about using Logic Pro X this way. I guess it’s a matter of what is meant by “capable”. I am looking forward to more XML integration down the road.
What’s the order of your audio workflow? I’ve discovered I really need to better get a hold of when to apply certain sound processing in order to manage system memory better. Im not used to working with video and motion graphics in layered passes the way I am noticing I have to with audio; except for maybe color correction perhaps.
Any other insight would help.
Tangier
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21 Replies
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I personally think most projects audio can be easily completed to a pro level in FCPX alone. The tradeoff when you go elsewhere is you lose the ability to continue making edits without a complex round trip and reconnect which is time-consuming. I *only* leave FCPX when I want to hand off a mix to a professional facility doing a high end mix in ProTools. If you stay in X you have good mixing, most of the Logic plugins and performance is solid.
If you go to Logic/ProTools you gain additional very high end plugins and also more traditional automated multitrack mixing capabilities. For most folks who are video production focused these are overkill and don’t outweigh the convenience of avoiding a round trip.
If you do want to try though, here’s a series with best practices for FCPX<>Logic X:
https://www.fcpworks.com/the-logic-of-sound-part-iii/
Noah
FCPWORKS – FCPX Workflow
Call Box Training -
I’ve done a number of projects where I’ve gone from FCP X to Logic Pro X and liked the process. As Noah said, it makes subsequent changes harder, but then I’m a firm believer in locked cuts anyway. You can get good audio results with either application, so it’s really more of an issue of personal preference.
I personally don’t like mixing audio in X, so for me, Logic is the better tool. As a DAW, Logic will give you just as good results as with ProTools, though PT is preferred by most audio post mixers. I’ve also used Adobe Audition in a similar way and it, too, is a solid tool.
To get from FCP X to LPX, you can use FCPXML or roles. Unfortunately, there is no “send to” function like there used to be between FCP 7 and Soundtracks Pro. The trouble with FCPXML is that it doesn’t give you a flattened picture track. The video you get inside LPX is complete nonsense. So you need to separately export a picture file if you are building your audio against picture.
If you organize as roles inside FCP X, then you will need to make sure you add any handles manually that you might want. Also you’ll possibly need to checkerboard your roles to keep them separatel, like Dialogue A and B, SFX A and B, and Music A and B.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
I prefer a real locked picture as well. At what point do you decide to go to Logic instead of using FCPX? I am trying to discern is there a point where you ask yourself:
Are these too many tracks (roles) for FCP X to handle efficiently?
Are the tools in Logic (the same ones FCP X has access too any better in the quality of the processing. If not, then one could just stay in FCP X. If it’s a matter of more parameter control, then I’d understand going to Logic.
I had to do a mix over the weekend and FCP X really got bogged down. I assigned my roles, applied filters, expanded audio on all the clips so I could work with them, etc. I couldn’t help but wonder if this experience cause people to want to leave FCP X for audio work; being that Logic (and ProTools and the like) is just better suited for really handling all of the media. I am not totally sure about this, but I definitely felt like, I can’t get work done if everything is operating this slow.
I know ProTools is defacto, but I have heard so many great things about Logic’s built in tools and I wonder if, aside from the toolset(s) in ProTools is there any quality difference in how Logic Pro X handles the same operations – compressors, limiters, expanders, noise gates, plugins etc. If not, then it’s really just a matter of PT having more features tailored to post audio.
Additionally I have to make sense of a workflow – when to apply certain types of filters; on a clip basis or near final full-track basis.
I know this seems a bit much perhaps, but I am trying to make sense of the value using Logic could add to my post workflow and if, when, and how it’s worth it if FCP X can handle most of what I need done.
Thanks for everyone’s insight. No matter what it’s fun learning a new tool.
I just worked on a mix for a 3 cam shoot with 7 channels of audio (2 recorded mixes, 1 boom, 4 lavs) only needing to use the lavs, and it really just seemed slow with FCP X with the waveforms on, all four subject;s audio viewable in expanded view in the storyline on a relatively new mac pro.
Couldn’t help but think, “there’s gotta be a better way”.
Tangier
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[Tangier Clarke] “At what point do you decide to go to Logic instead of using FCPX?”
Hard to say as this is probably a personal preference. If more processing or mixing is involved, I jump over to LPX pretty early. Only a few tracks in most cases. For me, I prefer riding the faders in real-time when I mix. I also like the ability to create crossfades between clips on the same track. If I’m just doing a basic spot – VO, music, a few SFX – then I’ll usually stick with FCP X.
[Tangier Clarke] “Are the tools in Logic (the same ones FCP X has access too any better in the quality of the processing. If not, then one could just stay in FCP X”
I think the tools and controls are pretty close, but you just have more in LPX. But applying tools like compression across all tracks is easier in LPX because it doesn’t require compounding.
[Tangier Clarke] “I had to do a mix over the weekend and FCP X really got bogged down.”
That’s something I constantly fight in X. It simply gets bogged down in areas that other NLEs don’t. Waveform redraw is especially poor compared with PProCC and Avid MC these days. It doesn’t appear to correctly cache these waveforms, because it constantly needs to redraw them as you move up and down the timeline.
[Tangier Clarke] “I know ProTools is defacto, but I have heard so many great things about Logic’s built in tools and I wonder if, aside from the toolset(s) in ProTools is there any quality difference in how Logic Pro X handles the same operations”
It gets down to what you are used to. In my neck of the woods, many music guys (the ones doing their own compositions) are using Logic. The more traditional mixers and recording engineers use ProTools. I only encounter a small few post mixers that work with Logic. But it’s not for reasons of quality, but rather because of the investment they’ve already made in the PT ecosystem.
[Tangier Clarke] “Additionally I have to make sense of a workflow – when to apply certain types of filters; on a clip basis or near final full-track basis.”
Often it works both ways. That’s one of the reasons that if you use roles, then you might want to break it up based on several roles. For example, a role for each talent. This way you can have all of their lines on a single track in LPX and apply one filter to that track. In X, this would mean applying the same filter over and over again, every time this person spoke.
[Tangier Clarke] “I just worked on a mix for a 3 cam shoot with 7 channels of audio (2 recorded mixes, 1 boom, 4 lavs) only needing to use the lavs, and it really just seemed slow with FCP X with the waveforms on, all four subject;s audio viewable in expanded view in the storyline on a relatively new mac pro. “
I’m sorry to say it, but that doesn’t surprise me.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
We’ve been mixing exclusively with Logic with our projects for over a year. It works fine. I think we still XtoPro to generate our AAF though, which gives a better project conversion than using regular FCPXML.
John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.
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Glad to know. We’ve been using X2Pro to deliver AAFs to ProTools as well. It’s too bad that the interoperability between FCP X and Logic Pro X isn’t tighter via FCPXXML, but I am still interested in giving it a shot. As mentioned above, FCP X seems able to deliver good audio, but I was able to bog it down pretty easily so am trying to figure out at what point do people decide to not finish audio in FCP X and then from that point what their audio workflow is.
Tangier
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[Tangier Clarke] “but I was able to bog it down pretty easily “
Doing what?
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Having four channels (of a seven channel audio file) active and visible in expanded view on the storyline for a 28 min. edit. Selecting multiple clips of one channel to apply compressor or other sound processing filters. This is just to start. Toggling channels off and on per whatever I selected was slowly responsive as well.
Granted there could be many factors causing this. I went so far as to extract the individual channels and make them their own audio file in the finder then bring them back in to see if there’d be any performance difference.
I am on a 6-Core and Dual GPU Mac Pro with 32 GB Ram connected to an 8TB RAID 10 via thunderbolt.
FCP X just got so slow, beach balling a lot. Applying the filters caused a lot of waiting. I made sure to only be in waveform view – meaning their were no frame images showing on my storyline.
Using iZotope RX3 eventually bogged FCP X down so much it would take 7 minutes to open the library and at one point it just would open; sometimes the OS giving me an error that I ran out of application memory. Luckily I had an XML backed up to get be back go basics before I applied sound filter application which allowed me to open the project.
Tangier
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Oliver, I don’t know why I didn’t get this reply in my inbox, but thanks. Your answers are helpful. I did exactly what you explained – isolating roles. I exported those roles as tracks and brought them back in to FCP X and added them to my multicam clip that way I’d still get the edits in my storyline resolved on my newly imported audio clips.
Downside to this method is if I need to use filters that don’t allow key framing of their effect then the filter is only good as a blanket affect unless I make further edits on the audio.
An example of this most recent mix included:
Levels adjustments
Compressor
Adaptive noise gate
iZotope RX3 vocal Denoiser
iZotope RX3 vocal DecracklerI even had to resurrect Soundtrack Pro to remove ambient noise (from an AC system( being that I don’t know if Logic has something like that – the set noise print feature.
By the way Oliver – I use this audio only plugin for crossfades on the same “track”
https://blog.alex4d.com/2011/07/11/fcpx-transition-sound-only/Tangier
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[Tangier Clarke] “Having four channels (of a seven channel audio file) active and visible in expanded view on the storyline for a 28 min. edit. “
Are the other three channels silent?
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