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FCP-X and misrepresentation
I am about to get myself in trouble. I often do this, and I am about to do this now.
Before I get myself in trouble, let me say that while I have my opinion of FCP X, I have become pretty familiar with FCP X, and am trying to be as open minded as possible about FCP-X. I accept the reality that the “next gen” of editors that comes into our market may totally ignore Adobe Premiere and AVID Media Composer (and will have never seen FCP 7) and only use FCP-X. But even now, there are plenty of pro users with FCP X, and I have installed quite a few shared storage systems with FCP X users (including our beloved John Davidson from Magic Feather). So I am NOT close minded to FCP-X.
I accept it.Now for the trouble –
When FCP-X first started, there was a video, from a big, real company in NY – @Radical Media, that was preaching the gospel about FCP-X.
Here is one link to the gospel from @Radical Media –https://www.lafcpug.org/phorum/read.php?19,277611,277674
and here is another –
https://www.apple.com/finalcutpro/in-action/radical/WELL – it turn out, that in REAL LIFE, as of 12/2/2013 – @Radical Media DOES NOT USE FCP-X, and is STILL using FCP 7 on all of their systems. I was shocked to hear this, as I thought that if there was only one big, well known company that was using FCP-X from day 1, it was @Radical Media.
So once again, I am not bashing FCP-X, and actually, I am trying to embrace it, and look forward to the new release. I acknowledge that
FCP-X is one of the tools that is available today, in addition to AVID Media Composer, Adobe Premiere, legacy FCP7 (and I guess a few Vegas and Edius users). But it just bothers me about the preaching, when none of it is true.Bob Zelin
Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
ma*****@****rr.com -
53 Replies
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I’m sure the temptation at the beginning to be featured by Apple was pretty irresistible. I know that Evan Schechtman was a big advocate of the software at the start. But I haven’t seen anything from him FCPX related since last year.
But perhaps as time went on Radical realized there were still hurdles to overcome- around any number of workflow problems, that FCPX wasn’t ready to address yet.
I’d love to know why they backed away.
But if they’re still on FCP7 then it means they haven’t made a decision to go another way either- which is interesting in itself.
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[Bob Zelin] “(including our beloved John Davidson from Magic Feather)”
I’m beloved? Somebody tell my wife.
John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.
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[Bob Zelin] “FCP-X is one of the tools that is available today, in addition to AVID Media Composer, Adobe Premiere, legacy FCP7 (and I guess a few Vegas and Edius users).”
Just out of curiosity, are you seeing Vegas in any mid sized post houses ‘out there’? I’ve always liked Vegas and thought that it was one of the most underestimated NLEs of all time, especially when it comes to audio mixing and mastering. But I sometimes wonder if its made any real traction in broadcast and independent film.
Shawn
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So you are saying that the article on apple’s website was inaccurate? It just said, if i recall correctly, that radical felt confident enough with the fcpx to edit a big important commercial with it. I don’t see how that’s a big lie… I didn’t take the time to go back and read that article again though.
I have no idea what they actually are doing now. I could ask Evan. I can tell you that a few blocks down the street we have a significant user base on fcpx, but up until a month ago, more than half of our users were still on 7. We’ll probably still have people on 7 well into next year and maybe longer.
Sorry Bob. I enjoy reading the tone of what I interpret as your salty integrator “crankiness”. And I appreciate the time you’ve taken over the years to build such a great knowledge base of solutions here. I’m just not sure what you’re upset about here.
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Hi Keith –
in a recent press release from Promise –
https://www.promise.com/news_room/news.aspx?rsn=1137&m=23®ion=en-globalthe quote –
“SANLink2 and Pegasus2 have set new standards for performance and flexibility, creating a whole new realm of possibilities for multimedia pros and power users,” said James Lee, CEO, PROMISE Technology.I commented on this when it was released on the SAN networks forum (I can’t find the press release on Cow, or my comment) –
but I commented that I highly doubt that the Pegasus2 will ever outperform a current (old) Promise VTrak 16 bay fibre chassis, yet the press release indicates that this new technology will create new standards for performance. Perhaps I am mis reading this. But to me, it’s misrepresenting the facts – even from the same manufacturer.
So my comments about @Radical Media come from perhaps MY misinterpretation of the original videos. When I first saw them, I thought to myself “boy, I must be missing the boat here – this guy, who is an expert is saying that this is the greatest thing since sliced bread”. Again, I am NOT bashing FCP-X – I am trying to embrace it and adapt to it. But when you see a video like this, you tend to believe (well, at least I tend to believe) that these guys think it’s great, and they are switching. But it’s not true. Same with the Promise press release. When I read the press release, it gives ME the impression that this will set NEW PERFORMACE STANDARDS, meaning that the new Pegasus 2 will do greater than 1500 MB/sec. Will this be true ? If it’s not, then Promise has MIS REPRESENTED themselves in this press release.
Remember the old FCP ad (around FCP 3 time) – the $50,000 edit suite, now $995 ? It was never $995, because you always needed these little things like “computers” and “monitors”. And that ad had a Digi Beta machine in it. Maybe Apple got a good deal on the digi beta machine !
When John Davidson gets on Cow (and you get on Cow) and talk about FCP-X – you guys are USING FCP-X, and that’s what counts. Marketing videos that are not accurate, and misrepresent the facts – well, it’s just not right. So am I a baby ? Maybe.
And for the record, when I was in NY, I installed @Radical Media’s AVID systems.
Bob Zelin
Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
maxavid@cfl.rr.com -
I think that maybe what Promise means is that those new performance standards are being set in the Thunderbolt realm. Vague, for sure, but until we get our hands on one who can say?
[Bob Zelin] “When John Davidson gets on Cow (and you get on Cow) and talk about FCP-X – you guys are USING FCP-X, and that’s what counts. Marketing videos that are not accurate, and misrepresent the facts – well, it’s just not right. So am I a baby ? Maybe. “
In regards to our FCPX On Air videos, we’ve updated quite a few elements of our hardware, networking (Thanks Bob!) and even location in the past year, but I’ve just not felt the need to add anything else because:
1. The software and our workflow has been basically the same. What you saw is still how we do it.
2. There are better and more talented individuals that instruct people on the usage of software than me
3. With the big update coming I don’t want to waste any time adding to a discussion that might fundamentally change in a matter of days or weeks.My whole goal with the series was to show that you can, in fact, do much of what people said couldn’t be done with FCPX. It might be nice to show off the new Mac Pros and 10.1 in a somewhat personal pet project. I LOVE the idea of shooting something that looks great on an RX100 and Rode iPhone lav mic, but it really boils down to if we have time.
Big changes are coming very very soon for FCPX. If the 3 month update cycle starts fresh this month, who knows what we’ll get for FCPX in time for NAB.
John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.
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Hey Bob,
I have never replied to a post in my life, but since my public actions and business practices are so provocative to you, I thought I can at least answer some of your questions and offer a bit of an insight. Its a great reminder that when you put yourself out there, someone will remember and hold your feet to the fire. That is why I mean what I say, when I say it.On its release( FCPX), I was quoted in an article that “People who make rash decisions in technology are idiots!” Of course I was called the idiot.
https://www.studiodaily.com/2011/07/in-defense-of-final-cut-pro-x/
Apple doesn’t need me to defend them, and I don’t defend their actions or foolishness in the way the transition was communicated. It is a transition. I addressed two real major issues in my speech.
First was our emotional response to technical change. An understandable one, as we all make our living using tools we don’t make, for the most part. Of course highlighting change is a constant. We all wanted change but not this much, this fast-and not tied in a bow. The second issue was that it was time for a major technological shift- at the core- and within this a few items. What defines “Professional”, hardware at base design level? What does our OS need to manage more files than ever, larger images than ever? How do we really go faster? What does our storytelling tool really need to do for me in an ecosystem of inexpensive specialized tools?
The GPU is now king for the professional Apps I use. The CPU while still important has been de-emphizsed as a primary indicator of media application performance. For those Applications that use it. There are of course ways of supporting multiple GPU’s now, and in the PC and gaming world its common. And DSP cards and other accelerators have been around for years, but lets be real- I use my blue ice card as an ashtray now. I need the the new MacPro. I want a solid state machine with stock dual GPU configs, that are a set of tasty badasses. We needed multiple GPU support at OS level. We needed Thunderbolt 2 to support any performance on GPU breakouts that can make a difference.
We are there now. The company that everyone said does not care about the professional has- designed a machine from scratch to a modern spec. Not a small Investment on their part. An investment. (sure we can sit here for an hour and complain about how I can’t rack mount it, and need to hot glue Thunderbolt connectors to the back of it and my storage).
Mavericks to me, is the first “professional” OS. I can list the ways but I will sound like an ad. XSAN (not for everyone) is built in.
And FCPX, is an editor built on a modern engine, on top of a modern OS with new media underpinnings, soon to run on top of custom made hardware with ridiculously fast but not perfectly practical built in IO.
For me, when I look around, I call that all built for the professional.
As for Radical. Our transition has been interesting. And is coming to a head in the next few weeks. Many of us use FCPX. The facility is 95% FCP, sure. And has been the entire year. I am glad you used the date in your post to emphasize the uncovering of this horrible conspiracy. We used FCPX on real client work around 10.0.3/4. Overall there was no doubt then that there were many things that showed me that this was the future. There were to many things missing. It was not the Macro sized changes that were the real show stopper, it was the micro things that were missing and the lack of an efficient way to collaborate that made us wait to roll it out. Many of us began to use it on our own, and in some areas, including myself, I did not do any work in 7 last year. My use is quite different however. Over the months we got through 9 releases? Some pretty major. We are awaiting the new release that had been announced.
The application has come a long way, completing a picture of the role metadata really can play. We saw what looked like course corrections and many meaningful additions. We got to see their approach, and commitment. We also got to see what Apple is leaving to the third parties. I am a fan of them leaving the niche and highly specific to the dev community to do, and focus on core features, speed and infrastructure.
We are ready to roll it out on 2 major jobs that are starting fairly soon, we are working on timing. During the year I can say with certainty, when in an engineering staff transition that I observed clever workarounds and “workflows” in FCP7 that get the job done, but are clumsy and time intensive. Almost every time I needed to look for solution, FCPX had a FUNDAMENTAL feature that was the answer- On multi cam stuff, and on 3D workflow as compared to Premiere- easily for what I needed.
And for Premiere, its awesome in that its super capable. It works with everything. It has GPU acceleration kind of. Its dynamic link for many people is the key. We did a big job on premiere, in 3D, on a beefy box, for a big director. Like anything- if we chose that path, we would find the hardware formula to dial in just so, but we did not find that on this job. The job had some nutty requirements, and FCPX was in the mix, where it clearly outshines Premiere in a few key areas of core workflow. FCPX slaughters everyone at actual speed, You have been using it, so I hope we can agree on that. I will have Premiere in the studio for sure. We will need it from time to time. It does things no one else does. I started on Premiere. When deck control cost extra from Pipeline. Seems history repeats.
We had a media 100 and two Avids back in 99 when I got together with Radical.
We have only had a few Avids over the years, the last big one was 2002 or 3 for Metalica because David Zeiff wanted one. He largely used FCP7 shortly after that, and some Avid. There were two Adeline systems when I was doing Miramax work for a year. There are four seats floating around now when we need to use them or someone requests in- in what is largely an edge case. We use 3rd party software to get it on XSAN and it works. Did you do the Avids back in the day for us?I have to worry about the staff. Editors, Assistants, Engineers, Producers, and Clients. There will be a learning curve, for sure- and it will cost time and money, no doubt. It has to happen and If I am going to disrupt the facility for a major shift, it will be when I feel the tool has come to enough maturity – and not to learn a different version of the old thing. They need to be trained, and we needed to secure additional people to ensure a smooth transition. And, personally speaking – I have had it with FCP 7. Its not fit for the work we do, they way we want to do it. I knew it would show itself when it was time.
I don’t need to tell you that planning a migration takes time.And there are surely plenty of gotchas. Through my live testing, during the “transition” we realized the real value of the GPU, and what ram does to a 64 bit App. VaVooom. All machines will be brought to an absolute minimum of 16gb ram, and all will have gpus with a min of 1gb. Many machines that had 512’s swapped were new again for HD pro res.
All this is not to mention what OS I run, and there is the meta-data controllers. Will they even run the new OS? I am not migrating on a .0 release. I use open directory- do I continue, how do I migrate that? What does Apple keep doing to the server version of the OS? What will Applecare do for me? Why did Lost end so badly?
These things suck. How could they do this to us? Its an imperfect system. Its the cost of change. Constant change. It is what it is, and keeps us employed and keeps me planning and timing and waiting for the entire picture to present itself. It takes time and money to transition. Period.
I have kept my word, and explored all avenues during the transition. I have let the situation breath. The actual transition is coming and in 2014 and we will full scale test it on two important jobs. A real investment Radical will make. I don’t take it lightly- I judged when it would be time. I will put my money where my mouth is as it were- and pass or fail you can post it here. I think I used up all my energy to respond to it in this one go however.
I hope this has answered your questions and criticisms directly, I am very easy to find and happy to speak to you at length should you have the desire.
Sure, I may sound like an ad for Apple, but I am literally just telling you why I choose what I do. It feels like the right choice to me. Maybe it is me who is the idiot?
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[Bob Zelin] “So my comments about @Radical Media come from perhaps MY misinterpretation of the original videos.”
Here’s a quote from a thread about Radical Media CTO Evan Schectman and FCPX from November 2011.
https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/335/20688#21022
Craig Seeman“Outpost Digital’s founder Evan Schectman spoke at MoPictive (Moving Pictures Collective formerly FCPUGNY) in addition to his usually FCPX demo he said that he’d been beta testing the next major release of FCPX coming next year. Obviously with the NDA guns pointed at his head all he could say is that he’s very happy with the way Multicam is being implement, broadcast monitor is good, there’s other good stuff coming and he’ll be moving his facility to . . . FCPX on that release. He feels it’ll be ready to take on their professional work.”
So I don’t think Bob was off the mark with his criticism.
Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
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nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf -
I’m fairly mid-sized, 6’2″, 230lb and I use Vegas! Have for 13 years and though, like FCPX, it has it’s shortcomings, it’s still by far the best NLE when it comes to audio. Matter of fact I just installed a new Blue Sky Sky One surround system and will mix all my shows in 5.1 in Vegas regardless of the NLE I use. I’ve cut many a show in Vegas including the Emmy winning Back at the Barnyard for Nickelodeon – it’s a weird and wonderful NLE and rumor has it it may be ported to Mac…
Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1 -
[Lance Bachelder] “I’m fairly mid-sized, 6’2″, 230lb and I use Vegas! Have for 13 years and though, like FCPX, it has it’s shortcomings, it’s still by far the best NLE when it comes to audio. Matter of fact I just installed a new Blue Sky Sky One surround system and will mix all my shows in 5.1 in Vegas regardless of the NLE I use. I’ve cut many a show in Vegas including the Emmy winning Back at the Barnyard for Nickelodeon – it’s a weird and wonderful NLE and rumor has it it may be ported to Mac…”
I guess by that standard I’m also mid sized. 😉 Seriously though, I think it’s cool that you’ve done so much broadcast work using Vegas, and I completely agree with you regarding its audio capabilities. I’m just wondering what the uptake is like these days. I do hope that Vegas get’s ported to the Mac as well, it would be good to see Sony spreading out a bit more and making the NLE market even more competitive. My daydream is that someday we’ll all have a lot more hardware and software choices, and that our work will be connected by open standards media and exchange formats.
I know some people want the whole creative community to have a single vendor for everything from their mobile phones to their NLEs to their television sets… but man, what a recipe for disaster! Would love to see Vegas sell a LOT of seats on the Mac… and hopefully on Linux too someday. 🙂
Shawn
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