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2 302s 6 mikes 2 camcorders any gotchas
Does any one see any problem in post if we shoot a musical group using two camcorders each fed from a SD 302 mixer with 3 mikes each?
I know the 302s can be ganged though I don’t have the interconnect. However I want, for educational purposes, to use two audio techs working together with two camera operators.
If this is PROBLEMATIC I do have the interconnect to gang a mix pre D with the 302 and we could get by with 5 mikes, though there are 6 sound sources to be covered.
Also I only have one shure instrument mike. Would I do better with a shure vocal mike or a AT4053b to mike instruments?
Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.
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29 Replies
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Craig,
Regarding using two 302s to two cameras –
There shouldn’t be any real problem syncing these up in post. You may get a small drift over time, but you could re-align song by song if you are doing a longer program. The problem you will have is that you have to mix the 3 mics on each mixer together down to a stereo file on each camera. Normally for music post-mixing you would want all six of your tracks to be recorded separately so you could mix them together in post. Since I’m assuming your cameras only record stereo, you are going to have to do a submix of boths sets of 3 mics, then mix those two stereo files together. So it’s possible, but not optimal.
Regarding using the AT4053b or Shure vocal mic on instruments –
It depends. What instruments? What Shure vocal mic?
Have fun!
Rob
Rob Neidig
R&R Media Productions
Eugene, Oregon -
Ok
My problem I see with this is that the 2camcorders can’t be started synchronously so will not be sync able exactly.
You will find there’s an issue with this when you try to mix. There will always be up to a frame difference between the tracks.
I had this last week with a split track of a shoot of an event where 2 cameras had 4 mics sep sound of the same scene.
When synced in avid there was a metallic phasing sound, as they were 1/4 frame out’
so I took an omf to protools, nudge them around by sample increments and sync them exactly then put them back to avid.
PeterPost Production Dubbing Mixer
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[Rob Neidig] “There shouldn’t be any real problem syncing these up in post. You may get a small drift over time, but you could re-align song by song if you are doing a longer program.
that’s what I was asking. Sounds doable.
[Rob Neidig] The problem you will have is that you have to mix the 3 mics on each mixer together down to a stereo file on each camera. Normally for music post-mixing you would want all six of your tracks to be recorded separately so you could mix them together in post. Since I’m assuming your cameras only record stereo, you are going to have to do a submix of boths sets of 3 mics, then mix those two stereo files together. So it’s possible, but not optimal.
Granted. A mixer recorder is on my wish list.
[Rob Neidig] Regarding using the AT4053b or Shure vocal mic on instruments –
It depends. What instruments? What Shure vocal mic?
Shure SM58. Acoustic guitars. bongos.
Would it help to send one input to L one input to R channels and the third to center? There are three main talents. Guitar Guitar lead Vocalist.
Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.
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[Peter Groom] “You will find there’s an issue with this when you try to mix. There will always be up to a frame difference between the tracks.”
what if we use a clapper? Did your nudging solve the sync issue or just help a bit?
Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.
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I doubt if you will get the 2 feeds good enough for music…. an interview would be fine, but not music.
Spend the money and do it properly hire a recorder for a day, even a Zoom H6. A few $$$ spent will save you hours of frustration. -
HI Craig,
I don’t know which mics you’ll be using and where you plan to put them, but you may also run into phase/polarity problems simply because camera A’s mics are over by camera A and camera B’s mics are by Camera B.
Regards,
Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum LeaderWant better production audio?: Ty Ford’s Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford’s Blog -
Hi
Its not the lack of a good sync point that is important but a video platforms inability to move fine adjustmnets than just + or – 1 frame at a time. Pro Tools alows me to nudge down to the sample which is 1/ 48000th of a second if need be.
When 2 cameras start recording on a press of a button, the actual moment of start on each will differ. This can mean that cam 1 started some part of a frame earlier than camera 2. A NLE isnt capable of slipping 1 to the eother by any less than 1 frame, so the offset caused by the actual moment of start may be up to a frame. which wehn you open the faders can result in a “metallic” sound (its actually an echo, but is much smaller than we can hears as an echo.Hope this explains.
NB By syncing much more accurately in pro tools, then exporting a new file back into my avid, i was able to nudge the audio, relative to the other camera by miniscule amounts (way less than a frame) to give a solid sounding sync.Peter
Post Production Dubbing Mixer
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A note about sync. If you want hard sync both cameras need to be fed a reference signal such as video black or tri-level sync. Then if you feed timecode to each camera sync should be rock solid.
John
MacPro 8-core 2.8GHz, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.8.4, QT10.1, Kona 3, Dual Cinema 23, ATI Radeon HD 5870, 24″ TV-Logic Monitor, ATTO ExpressSAS R380 RAID Adapter, PDE enclosure with 8-drive 6TB RAID 5
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I’d probably try the AT4053b first. On acoustic guitar point it at the neck at the 12th fret. Changing the angle slightly toward the sound hole will give you less/more low end, which can sometimes become boomy. This is usually done with a cardioid pattern mic rather than the hypercardioid AT4053b, but the tighter pattern might actually help you isolate the guitar is this instance.
For the bongos, the 4053 should also probably work. Though the SM58 would probably be fine if you get it in fairly close. If you only have one 4053 and one SM58, I’d put the 4053 on guitar and the 58 on the bongos.
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Not really. That means that the third input is going to be mixed in with BOTH other inputs, making changing their relative levels in post pretty much impossible. If you can somehow record just two inputs to each camera, sending them hard left and hard right, then you would have isolated tracks for each of those to work with in post. Then you would need a third camera – or a portable audio recorder like a Zoom H2n – to record the 5th and 6th sources to. As has been mentioned elsewhere, a multi-track recorder, where all the sources get recorded together in one machine, is your best option. Then you don’t need to worry about sync, drift, or nudging. And I don’t know what cameras you are using to record this, but many video cameras really cheap out on the audio side of things. And some record to codecs that use compressed audio, further degrading your audio. So from a pure audio quality standpoint, something like the Zoom H6 or Tascam DR-680 would give you much better results.
The other option that I think somebody else mentioned already, too, is to hire an audio person to come in and take care of it. They can either record multi-tracks for you, or just do a live to stereo mix for you on the fly (or both). With a good sound person, that live mix would end up better than trying to record 6 sources to two cameras.
Have fun!
Rob
Rob Neidig
R&R Media Productions
Eugene, Oregon -
Hi – I agree, but I was working on the presumption that, as were having this discussion at all, jam syncing timecode to cameras and ref video prob isnt on the cards.
PeterPost Production Dubbing Mixer
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