2 302s 6 mikes 2 camcorders any gotchas

[Craig Alan]

Thanks John,

1) If I added the sound devices recorder would there still be a need for the AJA GEN10 sync?

2) If I did get the Sound Devices 664 Six-Channel Portable Production Mixer/Recorder or
Sound Devices 788T-SSD 8-Channel Portable Solid-State Audio Recorder would it completely replace the mackie we have in there now? Or is the mackie still worth it for feeding powered speakers or perhaps the Ki Pro for a fast stereo playback before editing the sound from the sound devices recorder?

3) The HPX250 P2 cams fyi have gen lock inputs which I assume is what you plug the gen10 outputs into?

4) And if the gen10 was used, I would not have sync issues with my cameras down to sub-frame levels for sound acquisition if I were outputting from two cams into the flypack fed by two field mixers?

5) What device plugs into the AES-11 input(?) of the AJA gen10?

I’m just trying to figure out what I could get at different price points since I never know what funding might be available. And I always need to research so I get all the little accessories with each device since I have no standing budget. You know like enough HD_SDI cables, power supplies, converters rack mount brackets etc etc.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[John Fishback]

Craig, here are answers to your question.

1. Yes. The ref signal times/syncs the cams together. Simply put, with ref each cam starts recording each frame at exactly the same time. However, you still need to feed timecode to each camera. With only 2 cameras you can use one cam as the master and feed its timecode out to the slave’s timecode in. But, you always have to start the master cam before the slave.

On larger shoots it’s more common to have a timecode generator referenced to master clock (see #5) which sends timecode to every device.

2. Probably, but not being a location sound mixer, wait for someone else to better answer that. The Mackie might give you more monitoring flexibility.

3. Yes.

4. You’d be fine if timecode is set up as above.

5. AES-11 is word clock or master clock output. This would be fed to digital audio devices and the timecode generator so they’re all in sync with the video reference generated by the GEN10. All the sync comes from the GEN10 – audio and video.

John

MacPro 8-core 2.8GHz, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.8.4, QT10.1, Kona 3, Dual Cinema 23, ATI Radeon HD 5870, 24″ TV-Logic Monitor, ATTO ExpressSAS R380 RAID Adapter, PDE enclosure with 8-drive 6TB RAID 5
FCS 3 (FCP 7.0.3, Motion 4.0.3, Comp 3.5.3, DVDSP 4.2.2, Color 1.5.3)
FCP-X 10.0.9, Motion 5.0.7, Compressor 4.0.7

Pro Tools HD 10 w SYNC IO & 192 Digital I/O, Yamaha DM1000, Millennia Media HV-3C, Neumann U87, Schoeps Mk41 mics, Genelec DSP Monitors, Prima CDQ120 ISDN

[Craig Alan]

Thanks so much John, one follow up:

[John Fishback] ” AES-11 is word clock or master clock output”

which is sent from the video mixer?

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Craig Alan]

[Brian Reynolds] “Why tri level sync? The mixer has its own sync,”

The mixer will mix multi cams live with one video output to the KI PRO.

But what if we want to capture each of the cams with say two tracks of audio each and have them all be synced in post?

Remember I don’t have the audio recorder yet.

Will the panasonic mixer sync multiple cams so that we won’t run into any audio sync issues? Syncing to a single video frame is not a concern.

What I would like to do is a live mix using the mixer but also record to the P2 cards of each cam and do a multicam edit. This will allow students to practice live mixing and multicam editing.

[Brian Reynolds] “The AVCHD format on SD cards is much more cost effective”

That’s true but I really like the AG-HPX250PJ and the P2 cards are very robust and less likely to get damaged or stolen – doubt any students own P2 cams. There were already 3 of these cams when I arrived and it made sense to add matching cams rather than start again. These will be getting a lot of use. I have enough cards so I can capture one set while we use another. Panasonic just came out with a mini-version and adapter so the smaller cheaper ones fit in the older slots.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[John Fishback]

I forgot to mention you’d also need to send video ref to the visual mixer. AES-11 would only go to an external timecode generator or a digital audio recorder or workstation. That’s how every device is synced. It all starts with the GEN10 as it generates all the sync signal needed.

John

MacPro 8-core 2.8GHz, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.8.4, QT10.1, Kona 3, Dual Cinema 23, ATI Radeon HD 5870, 24″ TV-Logic Monitor, ATTO ExpressSAS R380 RAID Adapter, PDE enclosure with 8-drive 6TB RAID 5
FCS 3 (FCP 7.0.3, Motion 4.0.3, Comp 3.5.3, DVDSP 4.2.2, Color 1.5.3)
FCP-X 10.0.9, Motion 5.0.7, Compressor 4.0.7

Pro Tools HD 10 w SYNC IO & 192 Digital I/O, Yamaha DM1000, Millennia Media HV-3C, Neumann U87, Schoeps Mk41 mics, Genelec DSP Monitors, Prima CDQ120 ISDN

[Craig Alan]

[John Fishback] “I forgot to mention you’d also need to send video ref to the visual mixer. AES-11 would only go to an external timecode generator or a digital audio recorder or workstation. That’s how every device is synced. It all starts with the GEN10 as it generates all the sync signal needed.
“

Thanks John.

1. Is there any software configuration needed when using the GEN10?

2. Ok. So if we get one of the sound devices recorders we need to go time code generator out the recorder to the GEN10 and then the outputs of the GEN10 take care of the rest?

3. If we don’t have the recorder we could use a time code generator (which seems like a decent chunk of the cost of the audio mixer/recorder.

4. Any recommendations on a dedicated time code generator?

5. Now you mention a work station. If I add a macbook pro into the mix, would that do the trick? Also how would I send the timecode out the computer to the mixer and camcorders? A card of some sort?

6. I assume the REF port (#40) on the mixer receives the output of the GEN10?

7. Why does the mixer have 2 of these? Or does the generator go into the REF port of the mixer which uses the second REF port to pass the signal along to the GEN10 which then distributes it to the camcorders?

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[John Fishback]

Okay, here goes.

1. No software config for the GEN10 that I know of. All settings are with the DIP switches. That’s explained in the manual. Also, AJA tech support is legendary so you can always check with them.

2. The GEN 10 sends word clock to your timecode generator (to sync it up) which is then sent to all the cams, usually using a DA. Some folks will daisy chain timecode from cam to cam, but direct runs are better.

3. See #2. Something has to generate timecode.

4. A couple of names of companies that make tc gens are Denecke and Ambient, but I don’t use these so, perhaps, one of the location sound guys can chime in here.

5. Using Pro Tools as an example, it has to have a device called a Sync HD which receives word clock or ref and then syncs Pro Tools to it. This is a bit involved and expensive.

6. Yes, the ref input of the visual mixer (switcher) gets the ref from the GEN10. The second connector is a loop through of ref. You could send that to another device, but, as the GEN10 has multiple ref outputs, it’s better to run those directly to each of your devices.

7. See 6.

You should look in your area for a consultant who can help you with these issues. That person might be at a pro audio/video retailer or be a freelance sound or video guy.

There’s one last thing I’ll mention. Sound Devices makes the PIX240i. It records just like the KiPro, but also generates sync and timecode. It also has a built-in monitor. I’d call Sound Devices and ask for a detailed explanation to make sure it would do all the above while also recording. If it does, you don’t need the GEN10, but would need a DA to deliver the ref to all devices.

John

MacPro 8-core 2.8GHz, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.8.4, QT10.1, Kona 3, Dual Cinema 23, ATI Radeon HD 5870, 24″ TV-Logic Monitor, ATTO ExpressSAS R380 RAID Adapter, PDE enclosure with 8-drive 6TB RAID 5
FCS 3 (FCP 7.0.3, Motion 4.0.3, Comp 3.5.3, DVDSP 4.2.2, Color 1.5.3)
FCP-X 10.0.9, Motion 5.0.7, Compressor 4.0.7

Pro Tools HD 10 w SYNC IO & 192 Digital I/O, Yamaha DM1000, Millennia Media HV-3C, Neumann U87, Schoeps Mk41 mics, Genelec DSP Monitors, Prima CDQ120 ISDN

[Craig Alan]

Thanks so much John. I have a much better understanding now. Since AJA makes the Gen10 and we have two of their KiPros I’ll give then a call and see what they recommend. Now, at least, I know what to ask and can more or less follow the advice/connections. I should also be getting some training from Panasonic, so I’ll ask the trainer about this as well.

[John Fishback] “2. The GEN 10 sends word clock to your timecode generator (to sync it up) which is then sent to all the cams, usually using a DA. Some folks will daisy chain timecode from cam to cam, but direct runs are better.”

According to GEN10 product description:
Multiple outputs can synchronize entire systems without requiring a Sync DA

It has 6 outputs so I imagine it can support 5 cams plus the video mixer.

[John Fishback] “3. See #2. Something has to generate timecode.”

I got that but meant that I’d rather put that money towards a mixer/recorder I want anyway than buying the time code generator sooner and the recorder later.

Thanks again.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Craig Alan]

Peter,

Just learned that FCP X can edit audio to 1/80th of a frame. Shouldn’t this do the trick?

https://www.fcp.co/final-cut-pro/tutorials/1191-sub-frame-audio-editing-within-final-cut-pro-x

Craig

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.