[Will Snow]

Yeah, but I’m struggling to find the time at the moment, so it’ll be a very long while until it’s all completed.

But it’s not that hard a thing to do, it’s just a total render hog. Have you seen “The Belleville Rendezvous” (also called “Triplets of Belleville”). They have an awesome ocean scene you can see here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=je1zUVDpx-M

That can be done with Form, just using a pre-comped/rendered layer map of various fractal and painted layers for the surface … right?

Not that complicated, just tough work for your system!

W:)

[Will Snow]

Hi David

Thanks for the reply. Yyyeah, the nice thing about Form is that I can pre-comp some lovely watercolor textures (this is all for an animation) and use that as the surface, rather than the photorealism of Psunami.

Glad I checked though,

Cheers!

Will 🙂

[Will Snow]

Does this mean that in the film-out the film is sped back up to true 24 frames/sec?

Crikey, you’ve got me thinking now. Don’t quote me, but I think there are two scanning stages: stage one, where the negative of all the rushes (or maybe just the selected takes) are scanned at 2k. These will then be the digital master image sequences. I believe these will be have a framerate of 24fps.

Then, once the final cut has been done, and all digital effects composited in, and the DI grade has been completed, it is then outputted as a master digital image sequence (in .dpx format) which is then printed out to film (at 24fps).

Then for the DVD etc, that master image sequence is probably ‘slowed down’ to a 23.976 rate for pulldown, and sped up for 25fps.

But I am by no means certain. Of course, for a film that is actually cut from the negative itself, like they used to do, the final master would have to be scanned in for pulldown etc etc.

I think…

Everything is interchangeable I guess, but it’s about the ease and cost of the changes. 23.976 is the easiest for change, 25fps the least so (it seems).

Generally, whenever anyone mentions 24p (especially in the digital domain) they are either knowingly or unknowingly referring to or meaning 23.976.

I assumed the studio feature I worked on was 24p, until I was told it’s 23.976.

I would be very careful about DVDs being able to play progressively. That bit from Wiki only mentions HDTVs and probably is on about rather high spec players. I think it’s always best to think of a low tech end user that has a bog standard player with a bog standard tv, and just wants a bog standard DVD that will work on it.

But I don’t know enough about DVDs to be able to be sure.

If I’m just working with a single hand-drawn, frame-by-frame source and using After Effects only for color and stuff, and I maintain a consistent frame rate… technically, I should be able to use any frame rate, right as long as I can convert to other formats later?

I think that TV Paint program is the place where you set you’re framerate. I dunno, I’m getting a bit confused with all this myself now. Instead of adding to the confusion, I’ll just keep quiet.

23.976 seems like the safest bet. That’s the main thing.

W:)

[Will Snow]

Heyho.

I have to say, I am not an animator, in fact I can barely draw (my friend is providing character artwork which I will then animate within AE) so I have no knowledge of TV Paint, or a real grasp of the consequences of trying to change a hand-drawn frame rate into others.

Doesn’t hand drawn animation do weird things like draw on “2s” or “1s” or something? Again, quite how this affects a framerate change I’m not sure.

My suggestion was indeed to work and output at various lengths, changing audio as required, but this may well cause more problems than solve, so just ignore it.

Yeah, decimal frame rates are weird. But just remember they’re only decimal when talking in a “per second” rate. As in, there’s not a .976th of a frame if you output an image sequence, then 23 whole frames. It’s simply the rate of playback, does that make sense?

For instance, say I shoot a water balloon popping at 500 frames a second. That could be 2 seconds of real-time popping. But say I watch those 1000 frames back at 24 frames per second, it’ll be reaaaaaalllllly slow (and cool).

Anyway, the term pulldown simply means getting from ~24 frames a second to ~30 a second. Lets take 4 film frames, we need to make 5 video frames (then repeat the process 6 times to produce one second of each). Pulldown is simply the method for achieving that.

I don’t know enough about Nero or Roxio to be well informed, but I do believe every PAL DVD is simply sped up, so I’d imagine that’s what those two do too.

Hmmm, anamorphic for the DVD. Dunno, I did a quick test with my 2.35 frame, and in Compressor I can add in a 2.35 letterbox which means it plays back fine on a 16:9 TV. But maybe anamorphic is the more sophisticated way forward. Simply don’t know.

Yeah, with aspect ratio, of course if you’re creating a 2.39:1 ratio with 2048 width, then that image will be much smaller than a 1920×1080. I dunno, up to you. Personally, I’m using a 1920×817 frame for a 2.35:1 image. But by all means use 2048!

What I mean by a master is a lossless version. H.264, by its very definition, loses colour space and frame detail doesn’t it? I thought it used technology similar to MPEG-2. But I’m not sure. Don’t quote me!

I’m personally going to create a ProRes4444 if an HDCAM SR is needed, I can do a 4:4:4 tape-out. Or whatever, I’m probably wrong!

I don’t think you can ever overthink these things. I’ve found it helpful to create a flowchart of exactly the steps I’m taking. Just to have it all down in ink, to save my head from thinking about it.

As you say, there are no real rules, so by all means do you what you’re happy with.

I am British, and do post updates of your project along the way. I’ll probably makes posts like “HELP the 23.976 pulldown conversion has lost gamma interpolated 1.0 value and is ghosting!!1!!” or something.

W:)

[Will Snow]

Heya Rohit!

Right, first things first: framerate.

I’m now going to use 23.976. In AE, this is called 23.976, but Final Cut Studio will read it and output it as 23.98, even though it’s really 23.976.

The reason I decided on 23.976, even though I am in the Land of PAL, is to not lock myself in to 25fps. Of all the framerates, it seems 25fps is the most inconvenient for changing to others. So unless you’re uber uber uber sure that you’ll never need an NTSC framerate, or a 24 framerate, then it’s been recommended to me to use 23.976

Think of 23.976 as a lot more future-proof than PAL.

Compressor can do a fairly job with the speed up to 25fps, and 23.976 is the natural speed for a pulldown to NTSC (all original 24fps film when scanned in is slowed down to 23.976, then the pulldown is applied). Also, with all the Blu-Ray hubbub etc etc, it will be the most natural for that (I believe).

However, it’s totally up to you.

One thing has occured to me: as your film contains few or no cuts, is it feasible to simply output the project in the various framerates required? That way you’ll have a project at the natural rates for all.

As I say, it’s totally up to you. If you’re really sure you’ll only ever out this to web and PAL then I guess the 25fps is the most natural.

Secondly, aspect ratio.

I’ve been reliably informed that though a lot features say their aspect ratio is 2.39:1, they were actually made in 2.35:1, and for some reason cropped to 2.39:1 for projection. Also, I believe if you make it in 2.35:1 this will make the whole letterbox issue for the DVD out a bit simpler.

Again, that’s just what I’ve been told, and I’m deciding to run with it.

BTW, is 2048 a bit excessive in terms of dimension? I’m just using 1920. I believe when they do a full 2K scan of a film, the actual edge-to-edge picture of the film is never used due to sountrack etc. I could be totally wrong, but I worked on a big studio picture over the summer, which shot to hard drive and they used a 1920 width. Again, your call!

Can you sync an image sequence to sound in Quicktime Pro alone? Cool! I never knew it had that power. (On a side note, Snow Leopard’s Quicktime X is PANTS! )

Finally, I would personally render it out to a ProRes of some kind first (ideally a 4444 I guess) to keep as a digital master, then from that render out H264s, MPEG-2s etc etc.

Again, this is all just what I’ve garnered from various sources, so do not take it as gospel!

Hope that all helps, best of luck with the project!

W:)

[Will Snow]

Cheers for that Michael!

Re: final delivery, I want to try and get my animation into as many film festivals as possible. So while DVDs will be used for previewing, if it gets selected they usually ask for some kind of tape format. Hopefully I’ll be able to get into both PAL and NTSC regions, and I’ve been informed 23.976 is the best bet in terms of that required flexibility.

But in terms of a final graded digital master, I was thinking the best thing would be to have it on 1920×817 (the 2.35:1 aspect ratio) TIFF image sequence, plus a lossless movie file. Then from either of those, compress/transcode/process that into whatever is required to lay it off to DVDs and tapes.

Hopefully that’s correct, I don’t think my brain can handle any more curveballs!

W:)

[Will Snow]

Thanks guys!

It’s all fairly straight in my head now, after a good week or so of short circuiting my brain at the unbelievable incongruity of all the myriad formats.

How on earth was it allowed to get like that…

Thanks again, much appreciated!

W:)

[Will Snow]

Thanks Dave

Yeah, this whole framerate headache is about trying to keep as many region/format options as easily open as possible, hence the 23.976 route.

That’s cool, I’ve got it fairly straight in my head now: work in 23.976 progressive all the way, then go somewhere with the sufficient kit for all the various tape-outs etc etc.

Thanks again!

W:)

[Will Snow]

Hi Rafael!

Thanks for the reply!

So p.s.f. is really something created within the tape decks etc?

So for the purposes of my animation workflow: in After Effects, FCP, Color, Compressor, Cinema Tools etc etc, and for the final graded master output file, I’m working in 23.976 (or 23.98) progressive, and I don’t have to worry about implementing any p.s.f. settings?

I’m just trying to get it all straight in my mind, I can’t believe the amount of incongruity there is!

W:)

[Will Snow]

Okay, okay . . . so if I’m creating everything from scratch in AE & Photoshop, do I just render out in straight 23.976 progressive? Or click the option to add a 3:2 pulldown, bearing in mind I’m going to create a master set of image sequences, plus a ProRes movie file too?

I’ll post on the FCP forums too.

Cheers

W:)