[Ty Ford]

1) Yes we do both of these. I teach talent with hand held mikes and boom operators to work with the audio tech to get a good level and a good quality before we start shooting.

>>and during the shoot on a second by second basis.

2) understood though in any given shoot you might have sudden changes in levels. If for example there was a line with horrible distortion and you had the option, you would reshoot. The occasional low level that say dips to 0 or -4, can be boosted in post. But at what level would you say best to reshoot? Remember I’m using student talents and student audio techs. Not someone with your skill. I’m just surprised to read in the manuals that 0 (-20 on the cam) is a target level.

>>Doing it only by the meters only gets you so far, usually not far enough. Ambient noise, off-axis mics both help you decide. Bottom line; if you can’t hear the line clearly because it’s either too low in the noise floor i because it’s distorted, then reshoot.

3. So you disagree with both Canon and Sound Devices manuals, as do I, or am I misreading what they are saying?

>>I’m telling you what works for me, but you have to be on top of the job. Audio is not a set and forget job. Manuals are frequently written to be somewhat conservative and frequently by people who are not users.

Thanks again Ty. Just surprises me that at this point in time that the camcorder companies are not addressing audio with the same competitive spirit that they are evolving visual acquisition. For example, the headphone amps on even fairly expensive video gear is really awful. They add so much noise to the signal that you think you have a problem with your mikes. So it’s hard to monitor your incoming audio. Play it back and it’s fine. We use a snake cable into the 302 and I tell the students to just switch to RTN to make sure that the camera is receiving the signal. Then switch back to the 302s headphone amp so you can actually judge audio quality. You would think also that the camcorders would have a RTN output nearer the xlr inputs so the snake cables didn’t need to have a built in splitter. Which by the way doesn’t always reach the headphone out or gets in the way of some other function on the camcorder.

>> That’s why I spec Sony MDR7506 headphones. They are some of the highest sensitivity headphones on the market. That sensitivity means you get more volume so you can hear whats going on. And I ALWAYS listen in return almost all of the time.

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

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[Ty Ford]

Craig,

1. If you’re a sound recordist you get the mic closer or ride gain on the mixer unless the ambient noise change becomes obvious. Otherwise, noise reduction or ADR.

2. If you calibrate the mixer to the camera as I have suggested, this is not necessary.

3. I peak in the orange with occasional peaks in the first red LED.

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

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[Ty Ford]

Richard said, and Ty and James had the $180 OST-801s.

Hey Richard,

You talkin’ about me or another Ty?

Regards,

Ty Ford

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[Ty Ford]

Craig,

Yes, combo, so you can see the peaks and the RMS!

I think there are two combos on the SD meters.nI like the one that shows a space between the peak and the RMS. It’s interesting that the size of the space varies depending on the voice. Each person has a slightly different peak to RMS ration and you can see it with this metering system.

I set my limiters at about +14 and try to hit peaks between +12 and +14, just tickling the limiter, making the Sound Devices limiter light blink slightly and occasionally. Camera limiters are usually pretty nasty so I don’t use them.

The Sound Devices limiters are designed to gracefully catch voice peaks and still sound very good. This means that their attack time is a little slower. Because of that, very quick sounds like hand claps and the click of a three ring binder clicking open or closed sneak through the limiter, That’s why aiming for +14 is a good idea. It gives you 6 dB of extra headroom before clipping.

I have clipped on a three ring binder, but since it’s just one CLICK, it didn’t sound bad. Applause, OTOH, can sound pretty nasty if creates a lot of clips over time.

Z’at make sense?

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

PS: and remember some of the cameras have “soft front ends.” The PD 150 and PD 170 (and later HDV versions) come to mind. I think they designed them using a -10 Consumer Line Level instead of a 0 Pro Line Level, because I always have problems trying to calibrate my mixer to them if I use line instead of -10 or Mic level output from my mixer. I can calibrate them with tone, but I can’t get peaks past +10 or +12, everything over that clips and I hear splatter in my Sony MDR7506 headphones.

PPS: If you’re using low-ball headphones, you can end up in trouble because you can’t really hear what’s going on. The Sony MDR7506 are great for clarity. They are a little peaky on the bottom and top, but not in a bad way.

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[Ty Ford]

David,

Happy to be of service! 🙂

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

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[Ty Ford]

Craig,

Unless you know where -20 is, you really can’t say where 0 is. Calibration is not done on an elastic scale, It’s doesn’t stretch and shrink. It is what it is.

If your peaks are lower than you think they should be then what you think -20 is on the camera is probably wrong, and too low.

Peaks are defined as different from RMS. (root mean squared). RMS is also described as average. You must select RMS and Peak as the meter reading on the 302 so you see both the lower RMS and blank spaces then the peak reading above that. You need to pay attention to the peaks to prevent clipping. If you’re mixer is set to only read RMS then it will seem very low. If you try to make it read higher by turning up the gain, then the peaks you’re not seeing on the meter, will clip.

These peaks are not just from people talking louder, they are the peaks that happen in normal speech. I’m thinking you may not have your meter set to the correct setting and are seeing only RMS or VU and not peak.

Regards,

Ty Ford

PS: tone doesn’t really have peaks the same way human voices do, it’s a continuous sine wave.

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[Ty Ford]

Craig,

Nice graphics!

You’re missing what I’m saying about calibrating the mixer to the camera. For just a moment, forget everything you know about the topic and begin afresh.

The idea is to calibrate the camera meters to the mixer meters so you don’t have to look at the camera meters to know exactly what level you’re sending to the camera. Setting 0 tone from the mixer to -12 will result in clips if you use the entire headroom of the mixer because it goes to +20. I’m the audio guy. I can’t and don’t want to be watching audio levels on a camera. I want to watch them on my mixer.

Having said that, yes, you want audio to peak somewhere above -12 and 0 on the camera. But I don’t want to keep looking at camera meters while I run audio.

As for the dynamic mics, yes they are less sensitive than condenser mics and require more gain from the preamps.

Regards,

Ty

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[Ty Ford]

Hello Alex,

By “lavs”, are you referring to hard-wired lav or are you talking about a wireless mic kit that uses a lav?

If the latter, don’t buy below a Sennheiser g3 if you’re doing professional work. Period.

You can’t afford to cheap out. It’s your REPUTATION on the line.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

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[Ty Ford]

HI Craig,

I don’t know which mics you’ll be using and where you plan to put them, but you may also run into phase/polarity problems simply because camera A’s mics are over by camera A and camera B’s mics are by Camera B.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

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[Ty Ford]

David,

You’re not missing anything and I’m not in agreement with Craig’s response. Sending you’re 0 dB tome to a camera and setting the record level to -12 on the camera means you have 8 dB more signal on the mixer than the camera can take. You will clip the audio if you use the full scale of the mixer.

I have had versions of this conversation with several camera ops and they just don’t get it. One even said, “I don’t need your tone, my camera generates its own tone.” And as I recall it was at -12. I told him that his camera’s tone was not the point. The point is I’m calibrating my mixer to the camera so I don’t have to look at the camera meters during the shoot. I have 20 dB of headroom above 0. If you count down from 0 on your camera, you’re at -20 dB. Some get it some still don’t

In many of today’s professional cameras, there are no marks at all! It’s pretty stupid not to do provide calibration help, but there you are. The only response I can give is that camera mfgrs don’t care as much about sound as they do picture.

In addition, some mfgrs set their line level electronics to Consumer Line Level, which is not 0, but -10. You can calibrate with -20 tone, but in operation the camera input will clip at about -10 because the voltage from the mixer is overdriving the front end of the camera.

My Sound Devices 442 mixer has selectable outputs of mic, -10 or line. When I encounter one of these cameras, it’s because I’m trying to send it line level at 0. When I hear the clipping in the headphones from the camera return during my initial setup and the camera meters are nowhere near peaking. I switch to -10 output on my mixer and set tone again on the camera at -20. If you don’t have a -10 output on your mixer, the best thing to do is switch to mic level output on the mixer and mic level input on the camera and recalibrate to -20.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

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