Nigel Cooper
Forum Replies Created
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I’ve owned/used both and I prefer the Chrosziel personally. Vocal are great matte boxes, but the Chrosziel just feel slightly better made and are ‘silkier’ in operation, very smooth rotating trays. Thay are also a bit lighter than the Vocas system. Chrosziel are a bit more expensive than Vocas, but not much.
I prefer the way the side-flags attach/work on Chrosziel system; better design and thought out. German engineering and design at it’s best; the Mercedes of matte boxes.
Try both and see which you are happy with. Chrosziel are the industry standard though; and for good reason in my opionion.
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” Only the changes are recorded from frame to frame in MPEG.”
And the problem is? it works with meta-data and keeps a record of what is the same and what isn’t. I’ve never witnessed (and don’t know anyone who has) an issue with there being more changes than the algorithm can muster.
“When working with an I-frame codec,this is not an issue.”
Ah, but it is an issue, and it can be even worse. As I’ve mentioned, every single frame is shredded with DVCPROHD I-Frame, which is like a still JPEG photo. So the effects can be worse here, don’t be under any illusion Jan, I’ve seen it on many occasions. I still shoot on I-Frame camcorders.
“Oh, please. I only pointed out the silliness of your claim that Panasonic didn’t do MPEG because we couldn’t do it as well as Sony, That was the dumb technical argument.”
Not dumb. Check with Panny Japan, they have played around with MPEG2 in the past; to no avail.
“My point was that resolution specs do not tell the entire story.”
I agree.
“$5000 lens versus the $10,000. In fact I can see the difference between the $8000 Fujinon 2/3″ vs the $10,000 Canon 2/3″.”
I’m talking about two specific lenses and I’ve seen them as I was going to buy one over the other; fact.
“Perhaps you had destructive workflow issues because you were unfamiliar with working the workflow. But I can assure you that with a project as big as the Iditarod, with over 140 hours of P2 workflow capture and editing, we didn’t lose a clip or a card. And that is only the very tippy-top of the iceberg of work that has been done on P2 and it is indeed a very reliable workflow.”
I totally understand the workflow, shoot P2, dump to laptop or P2 store, edit, then archive to domestic Blu-Ray DVDs or DLT? what a joke.
As for Iditarod, is that all you’ve got, Sony did Iditarod on XDCAM HD the year before. If P2 is so tough, why did Panny UK refuse to let me do some of my special tests on it, when Sony were happy for me to test XDCAM HD discs by freezing them in water in the freezer, then thawing them out in the microwave and putting them through a dishwasher; oh, all clips were fine by the way. Panasonic UK refused my offer to test P2 cards to the same degree and said there were not designed to take such punishment. Well you could quite easily drop a P2 card in the snow, or in a river, or a hot volcanic fountain on a shoot; surely?
“Actually in reality the XDCAM HD workflow on a minute to minute basis is more expensive than tape. I am not saying it doesn’t work for you, I am just saying that in comparison to a tape workflow, it is very similar and it costs more than tape.”
Rubish, unless you are comparing to mini-dv tape. Comparing to Digibeta it is slightly less, and much less than HDCAM.
How does P2 fair up to the tape pricing these days?
Oh, and please don’t tell me you can re-use a P2 card thousands of times. XDCAM Discs cost $15 and can be re-used 10,000 times and played back over a million times.
“Here you have the right to your opinion, but the reality that it is not true. I was in product discussions yesterday with Panasonic Japan where indeed we were planning P2 cameras and products that would deliver in 2009.”
If this is the case, Panny are going down. As for the rest of my IT/P2 ramblings; all true. The IT industry does NOT support PC-Cards anymore, they are tooo slow and twitchy, this is why everyone (except Panny) have moved on.
“The PCMCIA slot is still on the PC laptops and the brand new computer 2 weeks ago still has a PCMCIA slot.”
Yeah, what brand, some cheap Chinese copy/unknown as they don’t know any better.
Check out MacBook Pros and Vaio’s, Dells etc. Not a PC Card slot in sight. Unless it is old stock. Check out the DVinfo forums, HVX200 guys buying up 2 year old MacBook’s like no tomorrow as they have PC Card slots on them.
“Show me the PC that has the XDCAM Disk built in?”
Don’t have to because I can record 65 minutes of glorious HD 1080×1440 footage onto a disc. I don’t have to dump, I simply put in another CHEAP disc and continue recording. P2 users need it as they can’t afford to buy 15 x 16GB cards to stick in their pocket.
“Microsoft in their NAB presentation 2 years ago called it an IT workflow.”
Ha, Microsoft eh, says it all. Biggest is not the best.
When Sony’s EX series come out over the next 2 years I just hope they have superb error correction built in like the current XDCAM HD does; or they will also suffer like Panasonic have.
“It can edit directly off of the card, and the files can be managed by meta-data, yes; it is indeed an IT workflow.”
So is XDCAM HD.
“The Duel-Systems adapter brings the PCMCIA card slot technology to those computers that no longer have a PCMCIA slot.”
Ah, a dodgy workaround fix, just until P2 dies in a few years time.
“There is no need for further development whichis what the PCMCIA commeittee stated. It is not a dead technology, it is totally viable.”
They said the same thing about floppy discs when CD drives came out.
“Why rely on spinning disk technology when solid state is so much more of a sure thing?”
Is it, I’ve never heard of a corrupt clip on XD, EVER. Nor have I heard of my XD disc being wiped whilst dumping it to an in-the-field device like a P2 store, then locking up and losing everything. This is quite common with P2 store according to the regular forums.
“And isn’t Sony the only company making XDCAM HD disks?”
No not actually, Sony, TDK, Maxell and Fuji all make XDCAM HD discs, why? because they are selling millions of the things and making a killing on them. Because they are cheap, people use them like tape, shoot to disc, edit, stick disc on shelf; end of story.
This will never happen with P2. As for Sony’s new SxS cards, not only will Sandis make them, but so will Fuji, Sandisk and many others. Cheap, Cheap, Cheap and even Cheaper.
Buy the time 64GB P2 cards come out, there will be 128GB SxS cards for $79.
With P2 you are heading into the dark ages I’m afraid.
“Right now I know that there are two other companies that are trying to make them, but it isn’t all that easy, it is more than flash memory”
Wrong, seed above, Fuji, TDK, Maxell, check there web sites for XDCAM HD discs, they have been making them for a year already and they are WAYYYYYYY cheaper to make than flash memory. It is based on Blu-Ray technology, which these companies already have in place. Keep digging Jan, you’ll reach Australia soon.
“Well unlike the Disk technologies or even tape, you don’t need thousands of cards, each camera only needs a handful, so there really wouldn’t need to be a lot of manufacturers making cards.”
When Sony’s first EX series camera comes out in November/December, I’d bet my bottom dollar that by the middle of next year there are at least 3 manufactures making SxS cards. In fact I guarantee it. In fact there are already 2 companies making them.
“You act as though you have some special secret knowledge”
I do 😉
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Jan, have you ever filmed and complete a production of any kind with ANY camera, or do you spend your life reading tec specs?
Fact is, MPEG Long GoP has one uncompressed frame to relate to, DVCPROHD compresses EVERY frame in a similar way to how JPEG works with photos. Swings and roundabouts.
I’m not going to be drawn into a stupid technical argument with you, I’m sure you have every Panny white paper committed to memory and can quote me all sorts of technical crap that just doesn’t concern me in the least.
I know what I see on a decent HD monitor; that is pretty much the only thing that counts; period.
EVERY I-Frame is compressed. Both Intraframe, Interframe and Long GoP are all compressed, they just do it differently; personally I don’t care about the scientifics unless I can see it in the picture and with pixel-shifting I can most definitely see it on a HD monitor; soft, soft, soft.
AVC-Intra can’t hold up to being compressed/de-compressed 3 times in post. I know people who have done it and it can’t handle being shredded like XDCAM’s MPEG can.
“you will have to work a lot harder with the lighting kit to make it happen on the 1/2″ over the 2/3″.”
So the above quote would mean a HVX200 is pretty much useless for independent low budget filmmakers then?
“It is a spatial offset that gains resolution by picking up the areas that are between the pixels of the green CCD in the Horizontal and Vertical Domains. This added resolution is combined with that green channel for the addition of lumininace resolution. CCDs ar analog devices, the image that comes off of them is an analog signal. That is then captured by the camera at a 1080 X1920P image capture, it is handled this way throught the camera processing and then put out to the DVCPROHD algorithm.”
Hmmm, nice and technical again. Doesn’t mean jack to me Jan, I’m concerned with what the picture ‘Looks’ like on a HD monitor and don’t really go by manufactures inaccurate quotes and technical babble; not even Sony’s.
“In general I would bet on the $10,000 lens over the $5,000 any day, same make or different maker. Just been my experience that the more expensive the glass the better.”
Just goes to prove that you have never completed a production. This is rubbish, the Fujinon XS17x5.5BRM is virtually indistinguishable against Canon half-inchers costing twice the price. I’ve compared all Canon and all Fujinon half-inchers for XDCAM HD.
Anyway, just to Clarify. I must reiterate that I frankly don’t care about brands or what it says on the side of the camcorder. Over the past 24 months I’ve owned HVX200, 2 x JVC GY-HD111’s, 2 x Sony Z1’s, Sony DSR570. I’ve hired Digibeta and used XDCAM HD in abundance.
I basically use whatever an individual job calls for. There is not one camera that can do it all.
Corporate video calls for Canon XLH1 or Z1, Weddings call for DSR450, Doco’s could call for Varicam, TV commercials HDCAM SR, feature films a 35mm film Panavision…
I owned the cheap HVX200 consumer camera for just 1 month before ditching it for reasons of image quality and expensive and destructive P2 workflow. I found the JVC GY-HD111 sharper (with the better lens of course) for my personal needs at the time.
I looked long and hard at Panny tape-based cameras before going for XDCAM HD. PDW-F350 suits most of my personal needs at this moment in time. This camera covers a wide spectrum from corporate, informercials, weddings, TV work and much more. And it is relatively cheap too with a workflow that, just works perfectly.
The bane of Panny products is still the dated, obsolete and expensive P2 workflow that simply won’t be around come 2009. Even Panasonic Japan know darn well that they will be announcing the replacement for P2 at NAB 2009.
Old serial/slow/unreliable P2 technology simply can’t survive in today’s world. How Panasonic call it the ‘IT’ workflow is a joke and ironic considering the IT industry has left PC-Card technology behind and moved onto the faster, more reliable, cheaper, more future proof ExpressCard technology.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t Panasonic the only company on the planet that use PC-Card technology now?
And I see the CinePorter got canned due to lack of interest. Personally I think it is because they know they would probably only sell a few hundred.
And aren’t Panasonic the only company on the planet making P2 cards?
There is a good reason Kodak, Lexar, Sandis, Fuji etc etc won’t EVER make P2 cards. Because they won’t sell many, just one to each end user. They won’t spend millions of dollars setting up production lines just to sell a few hundred thousand dollars worth of P2 cards. If P2 cards stick around that long anyway.
Panasonic committed to P2 for just 6 years, 4 of them are up, just 2 to go.
Bye Bye P2, you’re days are numbered and anyone who thinks otherwise, well check back in 2009 and I’ll accept your apologies.
Convince yourself all you like Jan and enjoy the pay whilst it is there.
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Peter, the Panny is cheap because it has standard def chips, it is basically a standard def camera with some clever pixel-shifting trickery to fake a HD image.
I personally bought into P2, but sold up and bought F350 instead, I’ll never look back.
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Peter, you are being fed some wrong information here.
Why oh why do people insist that the DVCPRO100 codec is better than the MPEG2 codec; this is total rubish. For your information John, DVCPRO100 DOES NOT record at 100Mbps, it is closer to 48Mbps, read up and learn. Besides, XDCAM HDs35Mbps is more like 100Mbps due to the fact that the MPEG codec is sooooooooo much more efficient.
I think Sony know exactly what they are doing with codecs. The only reason Panny aren’t using MPEG is because they can’t get it to work as well as Sony can so they are sticking with their tried-and-tested method. But believe me, it is NOT better and anyone who says it is, is seriously miss-informed.
As for the ‘distinction in imager size which advantages the Panasonic’ absolute rubbish. The resolution is what you need to be looking at, Sony’s 1440×1080 vs Panasonic’s 960×540 (basically standard def chips with pixel-shift in 3 directions to force a fake HD image).
Panasonic admit this themselves, see here:
https://www.hpx500.eu/technical_advanced_progressive.php?lang=en
2/3rd lenses won’t cost you any more really, Canon just brought out a new range that are only a tiny fraction more than half inch so no argument there either.
How is a 2/3rd lens better than a 1/2″ lens exactly Pete? a 2/3rd lens on a half inch camera will be worse in quality than a 1/2″ lens on a half inch camera. It is possible that a
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With regard to new 2/3rd XDCAM HD having variable frame rate.
I think Sony are going to launch it and wait 3 months to see what affect it has on HDCAM sales. If the new 2/3rd XDCAM HD camera does not affect HDCAM sales Sony will put in variable frame rate to the XDCAM HD via a firmware update. If on the other hand the new 2/3rd XD does affect HDCAM sales i.e. HDCAM sales take a nose dive, then Sony will not put in variable via firmware, but instead they will launch another flagship 2/3rd XDCAM HD camera with every bell and whistle going, but for a further
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Of course it is possible to do variable frame rate at 1920×1080, just as F350 does already, you just lose resolution that’s all.
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Not sure about ‘little bit extra’. In the UK it is going to be about
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Guys guys, where is this information coming from; it’s all a bit hit and miss.
Peter, the F355 is only going to be
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Thanks Shane and Arni.
Yes Arni, I can see how it looked like it was well covered; and it was. After my being a little heated I got some good advice hence my ordering an MXO the other day.
I’m also getting rid of the Dell and getting another Apple display because the Dell only does 60Hz in 1920×1200 mode, which is no good in UK for 50Hz, you get a jump/flicker every now and then apparently.
Shane, thanks for that, good memory from the show. I am sure it will work too, but you know what dealers are like. Hardly likely that they would take back a used ATI card if it didn’t work.
Worse case scenario I’ll get the Matrox splitter too, but I think the 2-card thing will be find.
Thanks again chaps.
Oh, real color here we come 😉