[Michaelmaier]

[Margus Voll] “This project was preset before me and it could have been cut down to smaller reels but i did not want to
change the workflow as it turned out later resolve was also sort of on-lining facility ;)”

So you onlined in Resolve? Please do tell. 🙂
I would love to know your workflow for that.

Thanks.

[Michaelmaier]

Hey Chris. This is a great reply! It’s exactly the type of reply I was expecting to get when I started this thread. Extremely useful and insightful. Thanks for that!

Please see my replies bellow.

[Chris Kenny] “The budget DIY solution is to export ProRes 4444 and take it into FCP 7, FCP X (which actually has some pretty cool abilities with respect to routing multichannel audio and batch-generating multiple deliverables formats) or perhaps Premiere Pro.”

I’m totally PC based now. So FCP is a no go. I don’t use Premiere either.

[Chris Kenny] “Technically, yes, you are losing something with ProRes 4444 vs. DPX. As a practical matter, you will likely never be able to tell the difference. ProRes 4444 is widely used as a mastering codec in the indie film world. It’s similar in quality to HDCAM SR, which has generally been considered an acceptable master format.”

But in my experience when using Prores files in Resolve, at list in Windows, it seems to clip the highlights. The same for example doesn’t happen to DNxHD. After importing it to the media pool, if you right click on the file> clip attributes> and choose data levels instead of auto, the clipped highlights in a DNxHD clip shows the full range and are brought back, showing highlight detail that seemed lost. The same doesn’t happen to Prores clips. I’m talking about clips captured by a camera in either DNxHD or Prores. Not clips converted to Prores from another codec.
From talking to several other people who also experience the same problem, it seems to be a Prores problem. On top of that, Prores on windows can have gamma shift problems etc. I think it’s a great codec, but only if you are on a Mac. Just my personal opinion. For that reason my whole workflow is DNxHD based, at least till it hits Resolve.

[Chris Kenny] “In fact, the last time we delivered a product to have a DCP made, we had prepped a DPX sequence, and our contact at the other facility basically told us that yeah, they can handle DPX, but the vast majority of projects are delivering ProRes these days.”

Maybe their motivation would be that Prores is probably much easier for them to handle than a DPX sequence.

[Chris Kenny] “As for generational quality loss from compressing twice, that’s not really a big deal. First, ProRes is specifically designed to minimize generational quality loss, for just these sorts of scenarios. Secondly, while I’m not sure how Premiere handles things, in FCP 7 and X, if you export a sequence containing ProRes footage to a ProRes file, re-compression only occurs where necessary — for instance, if you’ve layered titles on top of the video. If a segment of video is untouched, the ProRes data is simply copied from the input file to the output file, rather than being decoded and then re-encoded.”

I don’t know. I’m really paranoid with the compression thing. I guess it’s trauma from the old DV/DVCAM/DVCPRO days. 🙂
To be safe I would rather go DPX or at least TIFF.

[Chris Kenny] “If you do want to master to DPX, though, Premiere Pro does support it, although I haven’t tested this workflow. The next step up in terms of price would probably be Smoke.”

But what about After Effects for example? I have heard of people finishing on it and if we can even start thinking of doing it on Resolve, After Effects could also do it, maybe even better since it has a better timeline and you can do any graphics and titling there. I would still grade in Resolve though. But instead of going back to the NLE, After Effects would maybe make more sense?

There’s also Blender 3D, which is the closest thing we have to Smoke and even closer than AE since it has a proper timeline and video editing function, along with 3D CGI, powerful node based compositing, matchmoving, tracking, rotoscoping, color grading etc.

[Chris Kenny] “Depending on the types of projects you work on, however, mastering in Resolve may indeed be viable. Note that Resolve supports alpha channels in ProRes 4444 files, which gives you a pretty easy way to get title over image, etc. You can bring in audio, sync it up, and embed it in your outputs.”

That’s interesting.

About audio, would it really be enough, enough channels etc?

[Chris Kenny] “The main limitations with this approach are a) you’re going to be rendering out a bunch of elements in other apps and bringing them into Resolve, where in a fully-fledged finishing tool you could do everything in one app,”

Yes, but if finishing on a NLE you would still need to be rendering out a bunch of elements in other apps. At least in Resolve you eliminate one more step and also one less compression.
I think that there’s no discussion that using a fully-fledged finishing tool is much better than doing it on Resolve. But the point here is if one doesn’t have such a tool as Smoke. What do after Resolve or in Resolve? I think this workflow you are talking may be very viable. The question is if it would be viable for long form, such as a feature film. But sounds interesting nonetheless. Good idea.

[Chris Kenny] “b) if you need fancy audio channel configurations, etc. in QuickTime outputs there’s no way to set that up,”

Could you elaborate a bit on that? I’m not sure I get it.

[Chris Kenny] “c) if your program is long enough to have been broken up into reels, you might need to splice them together in an external app.”

Does anybody break shows into reels anymore these days? I thought that was only important if you were going to transfer it to 35mm.

[Chris Kenny] “Although the last limitation goes away if you’re rendering to an image sequence format; then if you setup your timecode correctly you can just render all your reels to one folder and get a continuous sequence. (Though note that for e.g. mastering a DCP the facility you deliver to may prefer reels.)”

Really? I wonder why since at the time of projection there’s no need to change reels and it will be a straight through shot.

Chris, thanks again for taking the time to type that great reply. It already helped loads and is changing the way I was thinking of approaching my workflow. The thing is this is for a feature film for the festival circuit that I may get in, in a month or so. Since I have never done this before I need to re-access all my workflow, specially finishing.

[Michaelmaier]

Yes, it’s for a tapeless only workflow.

Somebody suggested Blender actually. It has 3D that supposedly rivals Maya, Compositing, matchmoving, tracking, roto, color grading and basic video editing with EDL import. I never knew that. I was always a bit skeptical with the whole open source tools support thing.

[Michaelmaier]

Ok Mike, I get what you mean now. Makes sense.

Since you mentioned do it yourselfers, what do you think would be an option for a finishing tool for indies? Besides the $3.5 Smoke which is Mac only.

So far the best option I can see is After Effects. I use Resolve for grading but it lack the tools as a finisher as discussed in this thread.

[Michaelmaier]

[Mike Most]“A copy of Resolve Lite might be great for someone doing their personal short in their living room, but in an actual working facility catering to studio clients, a Baselight at $90,000 might be a better choice.”

Sorry but I can’t see that at all. Of course if you really only mean Resolve Lite then I see the point as it’s limited. But by your tone I have the impression you mean Resolve at all, including the paid version. And then, I don’t see your point at all. Unless it’s just for bragging rights because it costs more.

[Michaelmaier]

Sure it’s not HD resolution. But 800 lines in a small 20″ size is enough. They say you need 24″ before you need full HD. Actually it’s 600 lines in 16:9. But it also becomes around a 17″ in 16:9 so it works the same.

Good to know even without the SDI card it will do 1080 via component. Although I’m thinking for sure only 1080i and not 1080p.
In any case I have an old Blackmagic SP card that sends 10 bit component HD which should work with it then. At least I think.

Is there a special SDI card for HD or all SDI cards for the 20L5 will do both SD and HD?

[Michaelmaier]

I’m not looking for an all in one package. I’m just looking for a viable way to finish without spending a million dollars. Mistika is definitely nice but insanely priced. I’m just wondering if Smoke 2013 is the only affordable finishing solution out there at this point.

[Michaelmaier]

[stig olsen]“Davinci is for grading, only.”

I have been thinking about this. I think this can be a bit subjective. Sure Resolve is mainly a grading suite. But finishing means for example do cosmetic touch ups, working on skin blemishes etc and making the image look as good as possible. This is something Resolve can do very well or? I think saying Resolve is not a finishing tool may be only half true. More accurate would be to say Resolve is not a mastering tool. I think you could do pretty much everything in Resolve but mastering. Roto, matchmoving and effects can be done before it gets to the grade in Resolve inside something like Nuke.

[Michaelmaier]

Thanks. Do you know if all 20L5 monitors are HD capable? Because I was just told that you need some extra card for that and I’m not talking about the SDI card. I thought they all were HD?

[Michaelmaier]

This is what I’m talking about. I think rendering out of Resolve as DPX 16bit (at least) would be best. Maybe EXR is even better. But then there’s the question of where to finish it. Not all NLE work well with DPX let alone EXR.