[Ian Maclean]

Michael

Thanks very much for the considered advice. If I’m unable to get my Impact kit to light evenly, I will certainly return them and go with your recommendation. It’ll be more research and work, building a DIY fixture, but gratifying as well. I’m very grateful for your expounding on the capabilities of these newer bulbs as, like most uninformed or inexperienced people, I have a bias against ‘old’ fluorescent technology and the mood it created in film lighting.

I am going to keep doing research on supersaturation as there seem to be two possibilities: Either the physics is sound and one may be able to build a DIY replacement for Kino ParaZip fixture, then put in the specialty Kino bulbs, which come in small 21″ size and are reasonably priced (around $30), or Kino just likes selling expensive bulbs for profit.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/434715-REG/Kino_Flo_55C_K5X_Compact_Lamp_55.html#features

Your statement that my use of such bulbs would “most likely will over light the green” suggests that they are, in fact, a valid and even effective means of lighting a chroma backdrop, so I want to know more about the option to do so. It may well be that supersaturation is only a practical option for those who can afford several $1200 ParaZip fixtures. If so, that’s good information for those doing the same research I have been.

And Curt, I forgot to mention that I am aware of the benefits of a waveform monitor, and had always considered having a laptop with the software that provided such. Sadly, I’m on the mac side, and those options are limited. It was a definite factor in my research for a camera, and I’m very happy that my HPX170 has a built-in WFM which I’ll be able to see on a 24″ monitor in my studio. So I do have that capacity to help me tune my lighting. Thanks again for the excellent advice.

I’m also delighted, Michael, that you have the capability to delete posts that are negative in tone. Please, if you can, carefully read these topics I’ve started, and see whether I am anything but humble and grateful when I get good help. If you can block Dennis Size from further posts that would be great as he’s a definite negative influence on my topic here, which I feel has some interesting and valuable information. Many thanks.

[Ian Maclean]

“Now you have …paper with two, subtly different, shades of green…”

Any physics department. Or perhaps psychiatry. They might be able to explain that anyone is better off when they stand by what they say, are able to admit tiny inconsequential errors, and take no offense when asked to defend or explain their advice. I like getting corrected. I like learning. I don’t take myself so seriously that I think I’m beyond error, new information, or new minimal techniques that might work. This forum actually does seem to need moderators with a little thicker skin and fewer drama queens.

Ultimately these are discussions about light bulbs and their use, after all.

[Ian Maclean]

Damn, I don’t know much about Planckian temperature, but these 525nm bad boys

https://www.filmtools.com/kino-flo-green-550nm-55w-compact-55c-k5x.html

look like some potent stuff:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/PlanckianLocus.png

Better than throwing a gel over a 5500 bulb. Now I really must know whether it’s possible to build a fixture that will run them well, and what it would cost.

ps The info from the RED board may be colored (npi) by the fact that the camera’s sensor is tuned to work optimally with daylight color. I found that interesting.

[Ian Maclean]

“The best saturation of color is achieved by using …green-spike lamps on green screens. It’s not as much about how much light is used to light a screen, but rather what produces the best saturation of reflected blue or green light.”

Your attempt at clueless sarcasm actually sounds closer to real truth on this topic. Just in case, as you’re STILL not demonstrating a real grasp of the topic or the information I post, these are green producing Kino Flo fluorescent bulbs, specifically made for (what’s this topic title again?) lighting chroma backdrops. Your hostile condemnation of supersaturating a chroma screen, in practice or even in theory, your careless / ignorant responses, and your heavy negative attitude somewhat discredit you from further comment, and as I started this topic I’ll ask you to leave it to those interested in (and capable of) honest discussions of practical set lighting.

I’m sure expensive Kino Flow lights have a number of advantages, and from a preliminary scan of the website, it doesn’t look like their bulbs would be compatible with other Fluoro fixtures.

Their use is interesting, especially in that “Each Kino Flo® Visual Effects lamp displays a narrow band of light energy in the color spectrum. The phosphor inside each lamp produces a desired color, measured in nanometers (nm) at the highest point in the energy level.” So they’re actually generating a green spike in a desirable frequency, and are probably much more efficient than a gel filtering out standard 5500k and only letting through what the daylight fluoro bulb produces in its green frequency. So that is a knock against trying it the inexpensive way. There is one other possible benefit of using the gel -cutting ultraviolet from the backdrop. I’d like to know more about that.

I’d also like a greater understanding of the relationship of that green bulbs’ color measurement in nanometers to color temp in Kelvin.

“…safetycoated 525nm lamps for greenscreen applications. The safety coating cuts the ultraviolet end of the color spectrum to produce a cleaner matte.”

[Ian Maclean]

They also seem to be liking supersaturation over on a RED forum:

“Just did some extensive green and blue screen testing both under daylight and tungsten settings. (over 100 setups with all the variables !)

We found we got the best results lighting with supergreen kino tubes on digi green screens, with daylight balanced FG/

Even under and overexposed shots could be pulled on tungsten and regular (not supergreen kino’s) but they weren’t as nice.

Every little bit helps.

__________________
John Brawley
Cinematographer
Sydney Australia
https://www.johnbrawley.com“

I’m not familiar with Kino Flo. If they sell a specialty bulb, can you use it in a a non-Kino fixture? I wonder how new these bulbs are, and whether there are any (Chinese?) copies out there. Will do further research.

[Ian Maclean]

Hmm, turns out supersaturation works well enough for Kino Flo to sell coated bulbs. Not much different from a gel, it seems. Mr. Size has never used added green. Perhaps simply because he’s never heard of it:

“For the best results the screen needs to be lit evenly and with the best possible color saturation. Evenness is easily achieved using Kino Flos because of the soft quality of the light and the wide beam spread. The best saturation of color is achieved by using blue-spike lamps on blue screens and green-spike lamps on green screens. It’s not as much about how much light is used to light a screen, but rather what produces the best saturation of reflected blue or green light.”

https://kinoflo.com/FYI/FAQs.htm

“Each Kino Flo® Visual Effects lamp displays a narrow band of light energy in the color spectrum. The phosphor inside each lamp produces a desired color, measured in nanometers (nm) at the highest point in the energy level. The colors include two types of blue light, and two hues of green light. The 420nm blue and the 525nm green are often used in traveling matte photography on bluescreen and greenscreen stages. Kino Flo recommends safety-coated blue 420nm lamps for bluescreen and safetycoated 525nm lamps for greenscreen applications. The safety coating cuts the ultraviolet end of the color spectrum to produce a cleaner matte.”

https://kinoflo.com/Kino%20Flo%20lamps/Visual%20Effects%20and%20Designer%20Colors/Visual%20Effects%20and%20Designer%20Colors.htm#Bluegreen

Respected poster to the The Cinematography Mailing List Geoff Boyle also seems to use the technique (I don’t have a direct quote, however): “Super-saturating the screen helps considerably, but only if your subject isn’t standing directly on the screen. If they are, then you’re stuck with white light. If not, super-green Kinos work great, as do tungsten lights with Lee Fern Green #122 (a Geoff Boyle trick, and it works spectacularly well).”

I’ll keep looking for information and I’ll test as soon as possible the gels I have over 5500k fluorescent screw-ins coming through a diffuser included with the kit.

[Ian Maclean]

Bill,

That’s an astonishing, inaccurate, and unfair characterization. You clearly don’t pay much attention to the actual content of these threads. It would be far more accurate to state that I came looking for specific advice and help, and got some responses that demonstrated the writer hadn’t read my original posts very clearly, were not clear in their suggestions or comments, and / or evidenced a bias against anyone trying to push the limits of low budget filmmaking – specifically by asking for expert advice.

Should someone ask advice and specifically state they are limited to a 12’x14′ foot room, and one gives advice only relevant to people with professional resources, they are not helping the efficiency of either the thread or this forum.

When someone states clearly and repeatedly that they are on a budget, and asks for advice on how to make a specific light kit (the only one they could afford) perform optimally, it’s neither helpful nor efficient to lecture them on attitude when they request clarification or are only looking for help for a specific situation.

Assuming people who post to the Cow haven’t researched basic theories, questioning the same people’s motives and intelligence, and doing so while not paying attention to what they write is not, I must tell you, very professional.

Frankly, if my cheap lighting kit is able to light the paper backdrop fairly evenly and without fuss, I will resent the time lost bickering in these threads. I’d much rather get quick and useful information without all the negative attitude that’s been shown to me. I’ve expressed thanks many times to those who have provided the same.

Only now am I understanding the confusion caused by Mark Suszko (on Jun 4, 2009 at 2:19:11 pm) when, in criticizing my lighting plan, he wrote:

“…The wall or backdrop is already green. Now you want to wash it with more green using gels on regular lighting…Now you have unevenly-lit paper with two, subtly different, shades of green, instead of just the one green shade, with a differnce in the brightness or contrast.”

If I now understand him correctly, he believes the flat green paper will emit two separate shades of green towards the camera. As this is contrary to my understanding of basic physics and color theory, I had assumed he was suggesting I wouldn’t be able to make my two-light kit symmetrical. When Dennis Size (on Jun 4, 2009 at 4:12:23 pm) used the same terminology without any explanation, I defended my ability to use two simple lights symmetrically.

Now, I am confused as to the basic competence of these two men giving me ‘expert’ advice on this forum. It may be they are only decreasing the signal to noise ratio. Also, how you could mischaracterize every one of my posts as argumentative when I am nothing but polite and nothing but interested in understanding the hows and whys of lighting for digital cinema. Yes, I use these forums to debate when I don’t understand, when something is contradictory, or someone is inaccurate. If a piece of paper really can radiate color in two separate frequency spikes, it would be good to know. I had thought there was a little more absorption going on in reflected light. But you should remember we are in a section labelled ‘Forum,’ – i.e. A place for discussion.

If you want to leave incompetence by your ‘experts’ unchallenged on these boards, you really don’t get the concept of a web board or the Creative Cow. For example, and to repeat myself, if many low-budget digital filmmakers end up with tungsten main lights, and fluorescents to light a backdrop, does this mixture create a problem? Here’s what Dennis Size said in answer to my specific question (on Jun 4, 2009 at 4:06:42 pm):

-I also haven’t had anyone address what seems to me a potentially common dilemna for entry level / low budget shooters: those using tungsten for key and backlight, and fluorescent for backdrop. A light green gel would remove any potential for blue light spilling on to the subject. …this is a potential fix to a potential problem, is it not?
…….I have to say I like the peace of mind of not worrying about blue wash contaminating my subject.”

It is not.
Don’t use blue light, regardless of the source –whether it be fluorescent or tungsten — on your greenscreen when you’re using ‘amber’ light on your subject.

So if one should not use blue light regardless, then there IS a potential problem, and using a light green gel over a fluorescent IS a potential fix. Dennis Size is not demonstrating much understanding of the topic, and when he criticizes my lighting plan he also obfuscates it (why would anyone use a tungsten light, colored blue, to light a green backdrop? huh? what?).

You may criticize me for challenging what I find to be sloppy and/or incompetent advice, but I’m not the one with poor attitude and/or writing skill. I react with gratitude and pleasure when I get useful and good natured help. See Curt Pair’s post (on Jun 4, 2009 at 4:34:54 pm) which contradicts Dennis Size’s statement, btw, and my response to it: https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/47/856881

I really like his suggestion to check with the recommendations for each software keyer as useful (even potentially crucial) information in setting up a lighting plan. Very helpful, and I’m going to look into that. Thanks Curt. And thank you, Bill, for the excellent summary that deserved it’s own thread. Perhaps one of the moderators could change the name on the thread posting back to you.

[Ian Maclean]

Curt,

Thanks very much for the detailed information and encouragement. I know I’m going to find it useful, and I’m very sure others will as well.

I’m delighted to hear of your experiences lighting with ‘opposite’ color spectrum as that (potentially) removes something about which I was a bit worried. Anything that makes things easier is always welcome.

Having said that, I must also completely agree with your attitude pushing shooters into testing. If you can only have two of the three (fast, cheap, good), I’ve structured my entire production to be unpressured by time. A luxury as I have no clients, and am working on a project that is all my own. I have been all about the research, and I’m about to be all about the testing (I get my lights next week). I will try it all ways, I will test these cheap lights and screw-in bulbs, I will see what my new camera likes and dislikes.

Jeez, I just thought of the horrible image of a makeup artist with one of those little airbrushes for makeup hitting my talent with red powder in the areas of green spill. Guess that wouldn’t work…

I will test, I will see what works, I will adapt, I will keep coming back to these boards as they are an invaluable resource, and I promise to share what I’ve learned. Many thanks, again, for the help.

[Ian Maclean]

“…potent gelled lights behind the right material might be a perfect way to go.”

You have neither the money, nor the skill, to effectively utilize this method.

Well, that’s kind of why I came to the Creative Cow. To get expert advice on getting equipment and the job done at less cost than well financed industrial productions using professional gear. See, for example, Michael Palmer’s excellent suggestions for inexpensive DIY fluorescent lights.

I didn’t really post to be curtly dismissed. Since I have been, however, can you confirm you have experience with rear screen projection chroma keying? How many times / different ways have you tried to do this? With which modern prosumer HD cameras?

I think it’s an interesting possibility. Maybe I’ll post a new topic. A custom-made 9′ x 9′ rear projection screen can be made for under $600. https://tinyurl.com/ofx8p4 Who knows what kind of inexpensive / used materials might be found out there for even less cost?

Here’s an excerpt from Tim Wilson’s recent editorial page: “Thanks, too, for helping us play to
win online, as 1.3 million monthly unique visitors help each other get to the next level of the game!”

Thanks, you’ve really been a help.

[Ian Maclean]

“-I’m not sure where you get the idea there would be …. uneven lighting. I have two identical lights, and each would have identical gels on them, they’d be placed symmetrically on the screen….”

Your choice and quantity of instrumentation will result in uneven lighting.

??? You are making nonsensical statements, not backing them up, and what’s up with the boldface? You seem unaware of the danger of damaging your own credibility by pissing all over someone who is in no way looking for a conflict.