[Herb Sevush]

[Bill Davis] “We argued for months over my contention that so many X editors claim to be significantly more productive when they become highly skilled at FCP X.”

Actually we’ve argued for years over the contention that X makes you “twice as fast” or “50%” faster, or some other numerical abstraction that has no correlate in reality. I watched the first 3 videos and they are all very nice demonstrations of how to go about things within X, but nothing shown demonstrates “revolutionary” speed enhancements to most editing work flows.

Tutorial 1 – key words are nice but so are multiple timelines that reflect the various stages of selection. The assembly timeline, the cleaned assembly timeline, the favorites timeline. Using “edit clip in-point or out-point to playhead” makes creating them a snap. The advantage of the timeline approach is that you get a sense of relative length that is totally missing in the browser view. But I do get the flexibility and speed advantages of X at this stage of editing. This is why David Lawrence organizes his footage in X before exporting XMLs to other NLes for actual editing.

Tutorial 2 – Did you notice, as he was moving the combined video + audio efx, that the audio often preceded the video. What do you think he’s gonna have to do once he moves it – why he’s going to have to trim and rearrange those audio efx so they live happily in their new spots, all of which is going to take a lot more time than the simple rearranging shown on screen. Which is to say that the initial re-arranging of shots connected to audio effects is the least time consuming part of the operation. Also you might be interested to learn that you can group and move locked shots in ripple mode in most NLEs – this is not an exclusive idea to X.

Tutorial 3 – Oh wow you can keep cutting as the timeline is moving – which means you are no longer watching what the client is watching because your busy twiddling around elsewhere in the timeline instead of focusing on what’s happening in front of your face. Fantastic. Remind me to fire the first editor who tries that in front of me.

All of which is to say FCPX has some truly elegant ways of cutting, as do most NLEs, and I’m sure it’s faster in some ways that any other system, and in other ways not so much, and nowhere do I see the speed claims often mentioned as justified.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf

[Herb Sevush]

That was lovely Bill. A few caveats …

[Bill Davis] “He believes in and perfectly understands how to extract value (nice value too) from big fat arrays of heavy duty cards in a big fat chassis as close as possible to a CPU which in turn is bolted as closely as possible to one or more GPUs and Big Power Units all nestled in racks and towers in air conditioned offices with big heavy monitors that used to be CRTs but now are flat screens because THAT era ended and it didn’t make any sense to chase it. Big space, lots of plugs and power strips. Comfy client couches. Wired phones at the edit stations,”

If only I could live up to your expectations of me. The truth is not quite so sublime. It’s been many years since I gave up my NYC office with it’s multiple edit bays. Currently I work at home, in a lovely room with a single edit bay – the old client couch is downstairs in the living room and there isn’t a wired phone to be seen.

[Bill Davis] “If he changed what would he get? More mobility? I suspect he could care less. Less power consumption? Doubt he even considers it. Slightly lower office rent? That matters to shoe string operations, not so much to established businesses.”

I do consider power consumption, for moral as well as financial reasons, but with one system the differences aren’t that much – the air conditioner takes more power than anything else. Office rent is no longer an issue and as for mobility you are quite correct that I don’t care at all.

But while your assessment of me is pretty much correct this has little to do with this current thread. We are not comparing my system to a MacBook Pro, we are comparing it to Apple’s new workstation, which is just as stationary as mine.

[Bill Davis] “forces are swirling around that say that in the coming months and years we’ll all be working somewhat differently. The office and the desk won’t be AS necessary – as internet connected overnight everything, laptops, tablets,watching rushes on your phone, and shooting pickups on cameras that cost less the breakfast craft services budget – continues to evolve.

But that’s NOT what Herb is doing.”

I’ve been working remotely since before there was a commercial internet – Fax, Fed-Ex and sneaker net. Since I’m one of the fortunate few who has almost never worked with clients in the room I’ve been dreaming of cloud editing before there was such a term. But one thing has never changed for me – the need for large screens (plural) both for monitoring and for the GUI. You are correct when you say I am set in my ways — until someone comes up with a way for me to see as clearly on an Iphone as I can on a dedicated 23″ monitor I will continue to need what I need, and I will not be constrained by what any one vendor thinks I need.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf

[Herb Sevush]

[Frank Lombardi] “I am still wondering if there is a way to sync the play head to jump to the same point in the primary clip, as it is in the multicam edit, if that makes sense”

You can’t sync to the same point in an opened multicam timeline, if that’s what you are looking for but you can match frame to the same point in the primary clip in the viewer (hit “F” twice, first to match to the multiclip, second time will match to the highlighted clip itself).

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf

[Herb Sevush]

[Frank Lombardi] ” I cannot seem to insert this effect on a clip by clip basis in the final multi cam edit. Am I doing something wrong?”

you should be able to mask and track multiclips on an edit by edit basis. I do this all the time. You would have to go thru the process of copying the clip and shifting downward as well as tracking your mask for each time you come to this shot in your timeline – what happens when you try this?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf

[Herb Sevush]

[James Culbertson] “Well, you are doing the comparison. I’m not sure many others are, who actually own a nMP.”

Why don’t you go back and read the original post. I didn’t invent this notion, the original OP posted an article by a Mac website that called the nMP “a failure.” Here it is again …

https://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/the-new-mac-pro-is-a-failure

[James Culbertson] “I’ve worked on the 8 core 2010 (but not owned). I wouldn’t place it (or any other couple year old Mac) anywhere in the same ballpark in its stock configuration…”

Again, read the article. Nobody is comparing the nMP to a stock 2010, they are comparing it to an upgraded 2010 because buying an upgraded 2010 is way cheaper than a nMP and comes out as either equivalent or superior on a number of benchmark tests.

The original OP was asking which choice he should make, and while I don’t own a nMP and you do, I do own an upgraded 2010 and you don’t. So in terms of this comparison we are fairly equivalent in terms of our authority.

My other point is that this is a choice many editors are still making and the answer is not clear cut in either direction … and what does that say about the nMP that this is still a subject for discussion.

[James Culbertson] ” Maybe you should try to get your hands on one so that you are talking from actual experience. I’d sure take you more seriously if you were to do so.”

Sure, send me the 6K and I’ll be glad to do the tests. Otherwise, I guess I’ll just have to live with the knowledge that you don’t take me seriously.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf

[Herb Sevush]

[James Culbertson] “Herb, could you tell us about the nMP you own, and specifically how that nMP in practice limits your current workflows?”

I will do that when you tell me about the 2010 Macpro 8 core you own, the one with the pciSSD Boot Drive and the Nvidia Titan GPU. Since the original post was seeking to compare that setup to a nMP then according to your logic unless you own both and can compare you shouldn’t be posting. Since I was pretty much faced with the same choice as the OP, I did my research and made my choice. This isn’t like a software UI, either the hardware has certain features or it doesn’t. I don’t need to spend 6K on a system that doesn’t work for me to know that the system doesn’t work for me.

[James Culbertson] ” I can certainly see how for certain small niche workflows the nMP would be limiting, but not for the vast majority of today’s workflows”

OK, so the nMP works for the majority, but an upgraded MP works for that same majority plus the small niche. And I’m supposed to pay more for that system that works in less workflows because … ???

[James Culbertson] “But I wait to be enlightened by you.”

Here’s the enlightening part – name another computer that’s actively being compared to it’s 6 year old EOl’d predecessor and it’s not clear cut which one a user should buy.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf

[Herb Sevush]

[Mitch Ives] “Faster than the old Mac Pro. That IS what the article was about, right Herb?”

You are quite right, so I’ll rephrase it — faster than a 2010 8 core 2.4 macpro with a pciSSD and an Nvidia Titan (or eqiuvalent)? And if so, by how much – a subjective guess would do.

[Mitch Ives] “That’s a very condescending position. But, I guess you’re the arbiter for determining what fits what workflow?”

It is a statement of fact. The Mac Pro allowed for a wider variety of workflows – want your raid storage internal? – no problem. Want your choice of GPUs? – no problem. Want dual Xeons – can do. Want to upgrade any of these elements 3 years from now when the technology changes? – no problem.

Open is always more flexible than closed which is why the old MacPro was such an unusual product for Apple. With the nMP they have reverted to form – wonderful product that has limited customization. Works great for an Iphone, not as much for a workstation, IMO.

[Mitch Ives] ” every one of your posts in this thread smacks of a desperation for this article to be true. I was simply trying to ascertain where this bias against the nMP comes from, since there is no rational for it.”

I would offer glee as opposed to desperation, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. As for where this comes from – the demise of the Ipod classic I should think.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf

[Herb Sevush]

[Mitch Ives] “Ahhh… I have less cables than I used…”

I’ve not doubt that is true in your case. In my case that would not be remotely true.

[Mitch Ives] “Why do I need upgradeability… and who says you can’t?”

Why do you need upgrade-ability ? — well if that’s your question then the answer is that YOU don’t. Others are not in the same position and are not happy with investing 6K in a device with a 3-4 year life expectancy.

As to who says you can’t – let me know how your going to add the latest Nvidia cards to maximize CC performance when your current GPU’s age to the point of irrelevance.

[Mitch Ives] “EVERYTHING under Adobe CC is faster…”

Faster than what … ?? Definitely not faster than the latest PCs with nvidia cards.

As I have said elsewhere the nMP is a wonderful machine as long as it fits your current workflow. This demographic is, by design, smaller than the one that the old MP was suited for.

[Mitch Ives] “Herb, was your mother killed by a falling nMP?”

Taking no offense, I would suggest that if you continue to flippantly use this phrase when posting you will inevitably embarrass yourself.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf

[Herb Sevush]

[John Rofrano] “What PCIe cards would you have put in those slots?”

Currently, my black Magic I/o card (yes i still need this on occasion) and my ATTO Raid/LTO card, and my additional SSD/pcie drive that I find helpful. In the future – an additional GPU card and/or whatever may come my way. It is true that if I never owned any older equipment I wouldn’t need the raid card – but I have a perfectly usable very high speed 16 TB raid, that I can cheaply upgrade to 32 or 48 TB for the price of the drives alone, that I have no desire to throw away.

With the nMP it is my way or the highway, as is so often the case with Apple. This is fine as long as you are content with never straying from Apple’s highway. I’m a wanderer myself. The old MPro, uniquely for Apple, let me wander, the nMP doesn’t. This behavior is fine for consumer products but not for what I need professionally.

[John Rofrano] “Why does it matter where the storage is? if you don’t have ANY external storage then I can see your point. It’s nice to have everything in one box. But most video editors have an external RAID enclosure that all of their work is on.”

I know editors who keep their MacPro storage internal – 4 drive Raid 0, extra SSD in the 2nd optical drive. It’s not my ideal, but I love having this option – oooppppss, that a dirty word in the land of the trash can.

[John Rofrano] “”the nMP is a failure because it didn’t satisfy my personal preferences”.”

This. I don’t think the nMP is a technical failure – if it does all you need and you don’t mind re-investing every 3 years or so, then you’re it’s market. The old Mpro had a longer useful life over a wider variety of workflows – which is the very nature of what I’m looking for in a workstation. Basically if they offered a dual GPU Imac there would be no need for the nMP.

[John Rofrano] “I guess what I’m poking at here is that there really are two questions:

Is the “new” Mac Pro a technical failure? (i.e., it doesn’t allow me to conduct my business)

Is the “new” Mac Pro a cultural failure? (i.e., it’s too radical a change)”

Neither. It’s a failure because it is a step backwards from what went before. This is not a radical change, this is simply a change of intended audience. My own guess is that Apple was all set to get out of the workstation market when the FCPX release fiasco broke. In order to dampen the critique that Apple had forsaken the professional market they fished out a design spec from someone’s waste paper basket and said – hey will give them this – it looks modern and it should shut them up for awhile. As you have accurately stated there is nothing about the workstation market that matches with anything Apple is doing to make money – this is just a PR halfway effort. It’s fine as long as that’s all you want.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf

[Herb Sevush]

[John Rofrano] “Wasted in what way? What could they have done different?”

multiple PCIe lanes and internal storage options. They could have done what HP has done, made it a no brainer for anyone with needs beyond an Imac. In the PC world, does a serious buyer consider a 2010 HP? I don’t think so.

[John Rofrano] ” But Apple is not in the “upgrade” business… they are in the “technology is disposable” business”

Which works for consumer items but does not work when your investing 6-8K for a workstation. In fact your statement is the problem – Apple is applying consumer based marketing and design for business users and sometimes it’s a bad fit.

[John Rofrano] “Would I have liked to see a new Mac Pro that was more expandable. I’d have to say yes. Having options is always a good thing. But as I pointed out expansion needs to be balanced and at some point it’s better to buy a new system.”

I absolutely agree, which is why the nMP was/is such a disappointment – I would rather have bought a new system, but when faced with my options, I ended up with a 2010 because it would give me a longer life than a 2013 – and that statement is unique to the nMP.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf