David Lawrence
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COW Coins
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[Jeremy Garchow] “Well, if I’m not on a shoot, I’d say 85-90% with the other 10% finishing.
I edit a lot. Why? Because I like FCPX and can relate its methods, I’m not a creative editor? “
No no, just curious. We all multitask so I’m just curious about where you’re coming from. Like when we had that conversation about DAWs and when you told me you didn’t used DAWs professionally, a lightbulb went off for me as to why we were seeing the need for tracks so differently. Just wondering if something like that might be happing again.
[Jeremy Garchow] “But today, right now, of you want persistent (and truly persistent, not sort of persistent) ins an outs, there is a usable method employed in X. When you say it’s not possible, I call that bluff becuase it is possible.”
Nobody’s bluffing. I really think we’re talking about two entirely different things. Simon nailed it in this post. This quote is especially relevant:
[Simon Ubsdell] “I am afraid that the apologists who will tell you that Favorites take care of the lack of persistent In AND Out haven’t thought about those editors who only want one of those and don’t want to have to be bothered about both.
If I have to use Favorites (when I don’t care where either my In or my Out is respectively) I will have “favorited” the entire clip either from the In point to the end of the clip or from the Out point to the start of the clip respectively.
That’s why it’s not good enough. Yes, if you always needed to set BOTH In AND Out then favoriting solves the issue (if you like that kind of thing). But for editors like me it really doesn’t work at all.”
Maybe language is getting in the way here. We’re using the same terms to discuss about two conceptually different things.
A range has a persistent start and end.
A range must have both a start and end.
A favorite is a persistant range.
This isn’t the same as a marked in and/or out.
In and/or outs mark the cut point.
In and/or out marks can be used together or separately (you can have an In without an Out and visa versa).
In and/or out marks only define a range when used together.
[Simon Ubsdell] “You aren’t really setting Ins and Outs in any traditional sense – you’re just substituting a keyboard manoeuvre for a mouse action defining a range in the iMovie sense. It’s equally obvious why the “undefined” range point will default to either the end of the clip or the start. “
Bingo. Apple’s UI designers are trying to map familiar terms and key bindings onto a different function. The fact the menu commands for I and O are “Set Selection Start” and “Set Selection End” means even Apple realizes this is different functionality. Otherwise, they could have called it “Mark In” and Mark Out”. Or perhaps they should have used the S and E keys. The name change is intentional. The problem is they’re conflating related functions that have different behaviors and usages.
In summary:
Start and End always define range and must be used together.
In/Out defines the cut. They can be used together or separately. When used together, they define range implicitly, but range is often not the focus.
Apples and oranges.
I think favorites are powerful, useful and really great, but they’re not a substitute for what we’re asking for with persistent in/out marks. I won’t be surprised when Apple adds this back just like they’ve announced a future source monitor. We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
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Sweet!!! 🙂
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[Aindreas Gallagher] “2 million and 2!”
2 million and 3! :p
And for anyone who wants to join the club, I found a fantastic deal online. Full retail license Production Premium Bundle 5.5 with free 6.0 upgrade for on $899 download or $999 box with no tax and free shipping. That’s up to $1000 off Adobe’s price. Mac or PC. My box arrives tomorrow:
https://www.deedshop.com/products/Adobe-Production-Premium-CS5.5-%252d-Full-Retail-%252d-MAC.html
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David Lawrence
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[Jeremy Garchow] “I see. You’re proposing to not mark the range, like a favorite physically marks the range in the thumbnail.
As soon as you touch that clip though, your old range is gone.”
Yes, that’s essentially correct. It’s a different kind of marking. It’s not permanent in the same way as extended markers or favorite/keyword ranges. It’s specific to the context of the in-process edit. In other words, range shouldn’t disappear just because I clicked outside of it. What if I’m working fast and I accidentally click when I didn’t mean to. Poof, it’s gone. That’s lame.
[Jeremy Garchow] “I’m sorry, David. I’m totally lost here. I am reading this as it took years of practice you use in and out?”
No, in/outs were the first thing I learned about editing. I’m talking about a different way of seeing editorially. It’s the difference between seeing/feeling the cut while selecting vs defining and assembling content chunks then fine tuning after. In my experience, there’s a different mindset at work. Naturally, YMMV. I apologize for not explaining it very well. It’s really not about the tool, it’s a different way of seeing. Just out of curiosity, what percentage of your time would you say is exclusively devoted to creative editing?
[Jeremy Garchow] “Oh boy. Please stop putting words in my mouth.”
(Sigh) here are your words:
[Jeremy Garchow] “It’s obvious you haven’t tried this.
You should try it. Not just open a clip and hit f, but actually go through and entire edit that takes a week or more.
Learn the keyboard shortcuts. It’s not that bad, and perhaps might work differently than what you might be used to in whatever editing NLE you came from before fcpx.”
[Jeremy Garchow] “The issue here, is that persistent in and out points do exist in FCPX. You guys want some sort of temporary in and out system, analagous to fcp7, but don’t tell Andy that as it has nothing to do with EOL software. “
If as you say, it’s obvious that Aindreas hasn’t tried it and we need to get used to working differently, why wouldn’t that also be true for Larry, since he’s arguing strongly with Apple for real in/outs?
I’m just asking you to think about why this is important for a master trainer, experienced editor and FCPX supporter like Larry.
Aindreas and I are saying in/outs are different than a persistent favorite/keyword range. Favorites/keywords are great but they’re not a substitute. It has nothing to do with EOL FCP 7 or any other NLE. In/outs are a basic element of the grammar of editing.
Yes, in/outs contain a range, but they’re made with a different intention. There’s no need to keep them in an ever growing list. It makes the list cumbersome and meaningless. The fix is simple — just maintain the yellow selection area or add temporary brackets on objects until the editor intentionally decides to change them.
[Jeremy Garchow] “I have no idea what Larry Jordan knows or doesn’t know. It’s all new software, and requires a different way of working sometimes. Maybe he doesnt like favorites, but if one could explain them as persistent in and out points by hitting the f key, maybe he’d have a listen? I would say that retaining in and out points in the Event is entirely possible, it just might not work like you expect it to work.”
Funny that no matter how experienced the critic — whether it’s Larry Jordan or Oliver Peters — anyone who points out an obvious missing feature is still holding it wrong. Whatever.
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David Lawrence
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[Jeremy Garchow] “I don’t want my marked favorites deleted. So this in and out would need to not compete with favorites. Right now, they are related.”
Only if you hit the F-key. I’m just suggesting that the specified range can be made sticky. It’s not the same as saving it.
[Jeremy Garchow] “Can you please explain to me this razor thin subtlety or marking in and out vs marking a range? The end result is the same?”
It’s a different editorial emphasis and intent. If I’m selecting a range, my focus is on the range of content. I may want to stash it and favorites/keywords are a great tool for that.
When I mark in/out, I’m thinking primarily of the cut — the transition points. I’m thinking cut, play thru, cut, but I really don’t care about the stuff in the middle. Yes it is subtle. It took years of practice but when I noticed I was thinking this way, I also noticed my editing had jumped to whole different level, vastly better than before.
[Jeremy Garchow] “I don’t know what you mean by this….”
From Larry’s latest blog post:
“I asked when Apple would support retaining In and Out (Start / End) markers in clips in the Event Browser. They refused to comment, but stressed that while these were the four features they were announcing, these four would not be the only features released. Retaining Ins and Outs on clips is SO useful, I will continue to bang the drum for Apple to add these.”
By your reasoning, since Larry hasn’t fully embraced your suggested workarounds, it must mean that he hasn’t spent time to properly learn the tool and is stuck in old ways of thinking. I don’t think you really believe this. Why do you think he finds it SO useful?
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[Jeremy Garchow] “How would fcpx then keep track of what you marked earlier, and what is now selected? You can’t have overlapping favorites now, so this would mean this auto favorite would simply delete the work I have done earlier when marking favorties.”
I actually think it’s pretty easy from a UI standpoint. All they have to do is make the yellow range area stay put one you set it. Clicking outside a range should not turn the range off or select the entire clip as it does now. Leave that decision to the editor. Simple. Or just add brackets or some other visual indicator to the object. It’s not a big deal.
The problem as I see it is that the UI designers tried to combine range selection with marking in/out. To an engineer, they may seem to be the same thing, but they’re not.
[Jeremy Garchow] “what is needed is range based exporting from the Project (Or Event). That in and out is sorely needed.”
Yes!
[Jeremy Garchow] “‘I’d much rather have the audio editing get fixed then worry about hitting the f key. It sjust not a big deal, and contrary to what you and Andy argue for, persistent ins and outs do exist in fcpx, you just have to learn to use them.”
Agree multi-track audio is a priority. It’s currently a mess and I’m curious how they’ll fix it. I have a couple hunches but we’ll have to wait and see. The big question will it be better than anything we’ve seen before.
[Jeremy Garchow] “contrary to what you and Andy argue for, persistent ins and outs do exist in fcpx, you just have to learn to use them.”
So are you saying this is true for Larry Jordan as well?
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[Jeremy Garchow] “I guess subclips to me, are compared to fcp7s “make subclip” feature which I never use as it’s limiting for me. I use extended makerers instead, and favorites is just like that, only better, in my opinion, as they are truly persistent.”
I agree. I don’t use subclips in FCP because I find them inflexible. FCPX is much better with its approach. No question.
[Jeremy Garchow] “If you don’t like of the range goes away and don’t want to be bothered with favoriting that range, you could simply add that clip to your timeline in which ever manner you want. “
I call that making an edit. That’s not what I necessarily want to do at the time.
[Aindreas Gallagher] “I want the in and out points associated with that action to remain – but this does not mean that it is in any way a nominated favourite.
If we are going to start default using favourites as the function of retaining in to out ranges, then it is no longer a favourite function. It is the “retain in to out” by pressing an extra key every single time.
The favourites list is no longer a favourites list, it is a random assemblage of every time I set an in to out point.”
This idea is key. Setting in/outs often have nothing to do with the range itself. Range is implicit when setting in/outs, but very often, the editor is using in/outs to set up the next edit. The focus is on the in/outs as transition points. The range just comes along for the ride.
Favorites/keywords emphasize and save the range. There’s nothing wrong with this, it’s a totally useful thing. But it’s a different thing than an in/out.
We set In/outs constantly as a means of setting up the next edit. Hundreds of times during a session. It’s very specific to the immediate context. It’s a tool and nothing more. Aindreas is exactly right. If every in/out has to be marked as a favorite, than favorites become completely meaningless.
Like I said earlier, the distinction between range and in/out is subtle and one that is easily lost on non-editors — and just to be clear, I’m defining non-editors as those who spend less than 90% of their time cutting. I don’t know any advanced editor who thinks about an edit in terms of ranges. It’s all about the cut. In/outs are about marking the cut and taking action right now, in context. It’s a different way of seeing that comes from years of experience.
Again, favorites/keywords are good things. I like them. And if they do everything you need, fantastic. I actually think we’re talking apples/oranges. In/outs are different thing with a different emphasis used for a different purpose.
I don’t see any reason why in/outs and the favorite/keywording system couldn’t co-exist. I also have a background in programming (it’s been a while but still) and I disagree with Hodgetts’ assessment. I think it’s a UI decision, not a technical one.
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[Jeremy Garchow] “When you don’t sort by favorites, or when you’re sorted by list, not thumbnail.”
I’m still not following. Sorting has nothing to do with whether it’s a subclip or not.
[Jeremy Garchow] “Keywords are text based sortable. Type the keyword in the sort bubble, get the appropriate results. Favorites don’t work like that at all.”
OK, that’s added functionality because the subclip is tagged with the keyword. They’re both still subclips though.
[Jeremy Garchow] “So, in the Event, you browse a clip, you mark in, your mark out. You go to timeline, come back to event, range is gone.
If you have just hit f before you went to the timeline…?
I mean, that’s really what we are talking about here. One keystroke. “
Hitting the F key is easy, but that’s not the point. Why not simply keep marked In/outs on an object until the editor decides to change them?
The way in/outs are typically used, they’re persistent, but disposable. Saving them in a list is unnecessary. If I have to save every in/out I mark as I build an edit, the list would quickly fill with garbage. It doesn’t make sense for the way they’re used.
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[Jeremy Garchow] “While I see how you can associate favorites with subclips, and when you sort the Event by favorites it gives you some semblance of subclips, they don’t have to be.”
What do you see as the differences? When would a favorite not be a subclip?
[Jeremy Garchow] “We should also disassociate favorites from keywords. They work very differently. “
Again, I’m curious what the distinction is. Aren’t favorites just a special keyword with a special keyboard shortcut? If not, why not?
[Jeremy Garchow] “How do you define persistent? From what I understand of the word, temporary does not fit.”
I think of it the same way as the clipboard. It’s only persistent until the next action. But it remains if you don’t change anything. Maybe persistent isn’t quite the right term.
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David Lawrence
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[Jeremy Garchow] “You hit i, you hit o, you hit f. Or you drag out a range, you hit f.
That range will stay with that clip forever, and you can have more than one favorited range per clip, and that clip can be represented across multiple keyword collections. That is, in my book, more persistent than anything, unless of course you delete that favorite on every instance everywhere.
End of story?”
Nope. 😉
Favorites/keyword collections are a powerful/flexible sub clipping system. I think it’s one of FCPX’s best features. But marking an in/out point is different than subclipping. In/outs are persistent, but temporary, like the clipboard. They don’t need to be added to a subclip list and kept forever. It’s a subtle difference, but the distinction is important and the utility is real.
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David Lawrence
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