[Curt Pair]

Adam,

I think you touched on something that I would like to elaborate upon: technical specifications of cameras.

Specs of cameras are the “hidden keys” to many facets of production. You are correct in your realizations of specs too! So with out ANY biased, as you think I have some, I will ask you to ask your self some questions in trying to determine a format, and camera to use in YOUR productions.

* What is the native resolution of the camera? That is what is the imager size? NOT the “final output” size of the picture, but what is the size of the picture when it’s captured? Typically one thinks of 1920 x 1080, 1440 x 1080, 720 x 1280, 960 x 1080, 960 x 540, 320 x 240, etc.

* What is the size of the imager of that camera? 2/3″, 1/2″, 1/3″, 1/4″

* What is the codec and data rate of the camera (along with the native imager size)? (bonus question: how efficient is that codec?) HDCam SR-440 Mbps/880Mbps (1920 x 1080), HD Cam-144Mbps (1440 x 1080), DVC Pro HD-100Mbps (960 x 720), AVCI-100Mbps or 50Mbps (1920 x 1080, 960 x 540), XD Cam HD (422) – 50Mbps (1920 X 1080), XD Cam HD (420) 35/25/18Mbps (1440 x 1080), HDV-25Mbps (960 x 1080), AVCHD-18Mbps, etc.

* Type of media and it’s associated cost: HD Cam Sr (tape), HD Cam (Tape), DVC Pro HD (tape and / or P2 card), XD Cam HD (optical disc), XD Cam EX (flash memory), HDV (tape/compact flash), etc. Then figure out how much it will cost to ARCHIVE that media.

* What is the final product? Where will it be shown? (broadcast television, DVD, film, Blu-Ray?) Lower quality cameras will show artifacts and other imperfections when show on larger surfaces.

* Noise floor. What is the signal to noise ratio.

* Cost. What is your budget? This is why so many camera manufacturers have many models to choose from. They mix the elements listed above to allow the user to make choices. Price can also dictate compromise in the “mating” of the other criteria to produce the final image.

Typically there is a price tag associated with each element of these criteria. A camera with a larger native resolution size (1920 x 1080) with a larger imager/chip size (2/3″), and a high data rate will cost more than a camera with out those features.

Often, these days you’ll find a mix match of the three elements. There are cameras being made that have 2/3″ imagers/chips/sensors, with a native resolution that is not “full frame” HD, with decent data rates. The question is now, “will the image be the same?” No. To become “full frame” HD, which is now established as 1920 x 1080 for broadcasting, there has to be a post acquisition (after captured) of signal process (on the cameras with smaller imagers), called “up sampling” to make that image “seem” full frame.

These are marketing efforts by camera manufacturers “keying in” on buzz words in the broadcast and production communities, using them to sell product. They know decision makers out there, KNOW certain terms, and therefore USE those terms to sell cameras. If one doesn’t look at specifications of cameras, or worse, doesn’t understand them, they could indeed purchase something that will NOT fulfill their needs. This is great for the camera manufacturers as they sell twice as many units! It has been suggested to me, by many of the TOP engineers in the HD world that one acquire and READ the “white papers” of many of these cameras… Manufacturers aren’t allowed, by law, to use creative prose here to mask the actual specifications of the camera. Often brochures, ads and the like will use words to confuse the buyer.

“Color Space” may surprise you! For example, one would agree that the WORK HORSES of the HD industry in the tape field are and have been, the F900 and the Varicam! Their respective color spaces are 3:1:1 and 2.65:1:1! Most people don’t know that! What makes these high end cameras work so well in the world of chroma key work is their imager sizes, and CoDec. They are 1920 x 1080 HD Cam and 720 x 960 DVC Pro HD (however BOTH cameras capture a different frame size and utilizing their respective CoDecs (compression and decompression) capture images at 1440 x 1080 and 720 x 960, and playback at the “known” frame sizes of 1920 x 1080 and 720 x 1280.

This is why I said in an earlier last post to not get hung up on “color space.” It is one of those buzz words often misunderstood, and often over used to sell equipment. Remember that the camera’s color space will only be as good as it’s native resolution. More over, if you are shooting green screen the MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR is luminance ! Therefore the “4” is the most important and relative number of the color space (4:2:0, 4:2:2) (Green, Red, Blue). The red and blue channels, if you will, don’t come into play! The luminance is the “green” channel! You are “illuminating” the background to be replaced! If it’s a FLAT luminance level on a wave form monitor then it will key out! This is why I’ve always had great luck in keying many different formats.

So now, all things equal, all cameras have a “4” in the luminance, one looks at native resolution, CoDec (and efficiency of that), imager/chip/sensor size, and most importantly, NOISE FLOOR!

One of the camera manufacturers that you are considering in using, utilizes standard def imagers in their lower priced HD cameras, so there is already interpolation to get the signal from SD to HD! There’s even more interpolation when you want that signal to be “full frame” HD. Another little known fact.

I suggest that you sit down and make a chart, it will only take a few minutes, of the models you are looking at. Include each model, their native resolution size, the size of the imager, the signal to noise ratio, and the data rate of the recorded material. You might be surprised at the results! (I would search “white papers” for each model… brochures and websites may be misleading!)

One of the things we do on the ICE Team is to educate people in the world of HD. It’s no longer simple. There are several factors that should influence one’s decision to use a particular format, I’ve outlined those already. Often cost is the first. If an individual understands nothing on the technical side, gets caught up in the buzz terminology, cost will win in the end. That may work for some individuals and that is great! We hope that by bringing difficult terminologies to light, one can understand those terms and make an informed decision. If that ends up being a Sony camera, great! Perhaps Sony DOES NOT have a model in your price range with the specifications you need. That’s alright too! That’s why we live in a world with options.

I’m glad you realized that the technical side is as important as the artistic side in the world of HD production. With that knowledge, you will go far!

Curt

Curt Pair
Picture This Productions
Sony ICE Team
F900/F800/F350/PDW700/EX1/EX3/D790/D600
Adobe Premiere Pro CS3 HD/Matrox
Phoenix, AZ

[Curt Pair]

Adam,

I appreciate your input and points as well. I’d like to clear up a few things. I would NEVER suggest that one key in DV or DV Cam. I’ve “had” to do it to satisfy clients. If I have my choice it’s always on a higher end format!

I became a member of the “Sony ICE Team” as a direct result of my experience in the field with other camera manufacturers products. I’m a guy who has ALWAYS tried to be on the leading edge of technology. With that comes a price, I know… some times models advance more quickly than anticipated, some times the development isn’t solid or ready for the field, and there’s always a monetary price for jumping in early. However, the knowledge gained, and the experience of being one of the first have always paid off… So I guess it’s a catch 22…

I originally went with “another” manufacturer for tape-less work flow acquisition. I had two VERY large clients (one Network TV level and the other a large sports entity) that requested I purchase a particular format. I did. The first SEVERAL efforts were horrible. Things did NOT go well. A “card” was dropped, and irreplaceable material lost (due to “damage”). In fact that first month was so dismal using that system, I nearly lost both clients. That is when I decided to “get rid” of that system and subsequent camera and find something else. Something that worked for both clients. I definitely paid the price in being an early adopter in this case. I do understand some of the issues we had have been worked out now.

That is when I found the XD Cam HD format. We presented that to our clients, and they liked it. They liked having tangible media at the end of the day, and NOT having to figure out how to store it, and make multiple copies to store it. Once those first two clients were on board, we began to enlist all of our clients. Sony heard of my efforts and asked me to participate. I am NOT an employee of Sony in any way. I do however get asked to share my experiences, and help train others interested in the format, or those who have purchased the format.

I should also share that I own MANY cameras, manufactured by MANY companies! I have clients too! Often the decision on camera and format is mandated by my client. This is why we have HD cam, XD Cam HD, Beta, DigiBeta, DVC Pro, DVC Pro HD, HDV, Flash Media based camcorders, Red One, DV, and DV Cam. Sony doesn’t support all of those formats. Therefore, I’m NOT just a Sony user…

I agree there is a vast amount of information in these forums. I think the information comes from very high end professionals to folks who have tried something and found it works. All of the information is valuable.

It’s awesome to think that those with experience and knowledge are willing to share!

Curt Pair
Picture This Productions
Sony ICE Team
F900/F800/F350/PDW700/EX1/EX3/D790/D600
Adobe Premiere Pro CS3 HD/Matrox
Phoenix, AZ

[Curt Pair]

Tim,

I honestly think it’s too bad that you could not accept the genuine nature of my response. After all, I too have been in the EXACT position you are in now. I think it becomes a question of attitude. I’m a “glass half full” kind of person.

I won’t dissuade your feelings. I too wanted a trade in for my F350 in the beginning. I MADE my camera work. It was my attitude and hard work that persevered!

I can tell you for a FACT that national news networks do INDEED “take what they can get” in certain situations and in certain locations! I can tell you that up until the inception of the F350, certain networks preferred the 530 XD Cam in the SD flavor… NOT ONCE has anyone asked me, at the network level, “DO YOU HAVE MODEL XX” in the XD Cam flavor. I’ve been told “we want standard definition, DV Cam 25.” “We want SD IMX 50.” “We want XD Cam HD, 50, in 30 frames per second…” etc.

I have SEVERAL friends in the same boat you are in, and have asked their BIG clients like 60 Minutes, 48 Hours, CBS Sunday Morning, Evening News… “Do I have to have an F800 now?” The answer is “We want XD Cam HD, 50 Mbps, in 30p or 60i…” I too have made the calls to MY CONTACTS at the same networks to verify! The answers are the same! It’s a situation where you MUST have one of the two cameras… if both models are on the same show… you can MATCH THEM! With a waveform monitor, a vector scope, and a little knowledge on how to paint, this task isn’t that complicated.

ABC News only does HD for certain shows or certain situations. They are all over the board in what they want! The fact of the matter is that the PDW700 covers every aspect of their needs in HD and SD as well.

Often representatives at BOTH of those networks are ecstatic to hear we have XD Cam HD at all! Then the next question is what can I provide in terms of format, and bit quality… Model numbers just don’t come up in conversation. In fact, most of the network “regular shooters” are just now getting up to speed on the 700. I know, I’ve trained several on the west coast. The process to GET to HD was hard enough. I truly don’t think you have to worry about them replacing all of their gear at this point.

As far as D600 cameras being demanded by production companies, I can tell my thoughts for the reason behind that. I too own one of those! I was often emailed camera settings or a producer sent set up cards for our work with that camera. Many network shows have particular looks, which still holds true, and want their crews to follow guidelines. However, I have been on MANY network level shoots where in multiple camera situations, another shooter had an HL-V55. THEY WENT THROUGH THE TROUBLE OF MATCHING THEIR CAMERA TO THE CLIENT LOOK! They took the initiative to make what they owned work in that situation.

That’s what I’m trying to explain. If you have good relationships with your clients, I think you can explain your situation, and they’ll be willing to work with you.

I have producers, corporations, and networks that “trust” me. As long as I can deliver within the specs their boss’ mandate, and I make them look good in the process, they don’t care what I do. Our camera set ups rival the best. Our colors pop, our detail levels are flattering, we have rich blacks, and our clients flip over our results. And yes, that’s on the corporate, cable, and network level!

If you feel that I was regurgitating the viewpoints from Sony reps, perhaps that did happen. I will tell you, in genuine conversations, in “off the record” situations with personnel at Sony, this is how they truly feel. They weren’t looking to screw people over. They were responding to BIG corporations viewpoints in spending money. Companies that had to buy hundreds of cameras. These entities felt they only needed certain feature sets in their cameras and didn’t want to pay for what they believe to be “frivolous” extras. This isn’t one company. This happened with SEVERAL companies.

Sony truly does listen to their customers! Many “network” level camera men who NEVER shoot in 24p asked Sony to produce a high end cameras with features that would make their lives easier. That’s exactly what they did. Many features on several models are a direct result of feature requests sent in by everyday users.

I feel that you are putting a negative association with the term “news camera” in contrast to a production camera. There was no malice aimed at one or the other, just that they are different. Those differences in shooting styles often mandate different features. For the first time, Sony decided to offer a high end product with features in an affordable range for people who wanted them. Further, they made upgrades a modular decision.

The 700 is NOT a lower end version of the 800! They have the same exact chipset in them! They can produce identical images in certain situations. Once camera has a few more bells and whistles that appeal to a certain range of client. The 700 will STILL be used in productions with 24p as the boards are being shipped out.

I happen to know for a FACT that the 700 is of the highest standards of acceptance with Nat Geo and Discovery! Others on the ICE Team have paved the way and made sure ALL of the camera owner/operators out there won’t have to struggle to use that camera on shows! (More than “sales,” that is what we do! I don’t make a DIME off the sale of ANY camera!) Keep in mind that a MAJORITY of the time, the Networks/Outlets BUY programming from others, or pay a certain amount for 1/2 hour or hour of airtime. They give a list of guidelines to those companies and they often have several choices in the parameters of gear they are allowed to use. In the end the production company responsible for producing the show will make that final decision on format and/or model.

I had someone tell me that Discovery would ONLY accept material from an HDX900! I promptly emailed them MY LIST of acceptable cameras and formats, that I had received from Discovery Networks when I was pitching shows to them myself. That company did own up to having a choice and informed me of THEIR DECISION on what they wanted to use in the field based of their post production work flow.

For clients like this… you have to get creative! I’ve purchased SEVERAL PDWU1 drives and sent those as a free loaner (and after a while I RENT THEM) to my clients to use in the post process. (Think of it as the hook to “set the bait!”) This makes life easier for them, they don’t have to buy expensive decks and I get to keep using my camera, thus making money. (Now you can reel them in!)

Ironically, I have been personally responsible for converting SEVERAL high end, network level clients/outlets into XD CAM HD! Once they see how easy the format is to use, and how great it looks, they are sold. I’ve been an evangelist. I’ve been a pioneer. I’ve been an instructor. I’ve been bold! I’ve called people and said, “let me shoot with my new XD Cam HD camcorder… if you aren’t blown away, and it doesn’t surpass what you’ve been using, I won’t charge you for that shoot and we’ll go back to using — (whatever).” I ALWAYS GET PAID! WE EXCEED EXPECTATIONS! What’s better, I get to use my XD Cam HD from that point forward.

Perhaps I’m a good salesman. I doubt it! I’m slow just like others in the business. I’m not that good at “BS-ing” people either. I tell it like it is, make suggestions and then kill myself to back it up.

This is a tough time economically for everyone involved in our field and at every level! When I get creative, I tend to be able to make things happen.

You have to keep in mind ANY camera manufacturer is marketing to THOUSANDS of potential clients. Your particular range may fall within one or two models. I agree that you have to make decisions based on your individual needs.

Again, I do understand your frustration. I too have been in your shoes. I too was angry. I DID SPEND $20+K ON A CAMERA, only to have a new model show up in months. I wanted an upgrade. I wanted a trade in. No one would listen.

After time passed I did understand that the onus is on the buyer. As I was upset with my salesman, I continually chewed on HIS ear. He indeed DID know the next model camera was coming, and never elected to share that information with me. However, in the end, I have to take responsibility for my actions.

It’s not like I haven’t made money with the camera. I got a great deal, and the dividends have been HUGE for me. So honestly, I can say that I’ve saved about $9K on the price difference and it hasn’t hurt my business, although I truly expected it to hurt my business. I found that it was the way I approached ALL of my clients on every level that made the difference.

One of my largest hurdles was when Sony removed “my” model of XD Cam HD camcorder from their website; which made using a camera many had never even heard of… HARDER! Heck, I paved the way for people like you! I was out there calling people everyday trying to get them to let me use my camera, let me show them the XD system! So when I told them about it and they checked out Sony’s website, and my camera wasn’t there… It became a harder sell!

So please excuse me when I tell you I DO KNOW how things go down! I will not let you invalidate my personal experience. I was NOT a member of the Sony ICE Team at that time… it was through my hard work of building that network acceptance that you are concerned with, that Sony became aware of me.

You are fortunate enough that your camera is STILL viable in the world of news and production. Your camera is still listed on their website. I just checked the site too… You know what, F800 is the last camera listed on their site! They aren’t touting it as a better camera than the 700, just different. Allow me to QUOTE the website: “With features such as Slow & Quick Motion (over-crank and under-crank recording) make the PDW-F800 ideal for cinema and TV drama productions, as well as ENG applications.”

This camera is being marketed for that indie type production/cable drama/regional commercial market. Surely you would agree that you wouldn’t use a D600 to shoot a “feature film!” Sony has cameras that do that! They are in two different classes! The same applies here. In fact the same applied in the world of Digital Betacam! The introduced the 709, then the 790 was released. The same applied in the world of HD Cam SR… the F23 was released and then the F35. All have their place. All have price points. You can’t knock them for realizing they are “onto” a great technology and then improve upon that technology. Sony’s “hope” is that XD Cam HD becomes the “NEW Betacam!”

I can only contradict your statement about NAB 2009. Sony, in NO WAY, “dumped the model (700) in favor of the 800.” You couldn’t be farther from the truth. I know. I was ON the XD Cam Stage, along with Jody Eldred. In fact, we only BRIEFLY mentioned the F800! Instead, we focused on the F355 and the PDW700! Our presentations revolved around those cameras. Others like Greg Boston and Dave Sperling,and Doug Jensen answered questions at the camera pavilion. Sony NEVER instructed or requested us to reduce the stature of the 700 in any way! In fact, it was quite the opposite… Often I asked people “What are you going to do with the camera? Who are you clients? What are you using now? What is your budget?” I believe that if you don’t need or use 24p and over/under cranking, and you are on a tight budget, then the PDW700 is a perfect camera for you.

I’m not accusing you of slandering Sony in any manner. I understand your position as an individual trying to service your clientele. I understand that you want to feel secure in your choices and have security with that choice for a particular time period. I feel that Sony has indeed done “the right thing” by offering the 24p option, along with all the other options to upgrade your 700 to 800 capabilities. Technology will continue to advance. Equipment will continue to improve. You should have solace in knowing that Sony is committed to the XD Cam HD format, and ALL of the current 50 Mbps camcorders they offer today.

I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors. If you owned a D600, that means that you’ve been at this a while! If you’ve been at this a while, and still going strong, that must mean you have talent. A individual with your skill set and equipment will continue to turn heads. Keep up the great work.

I apologize for the length of the this post.

Curt Pair
Picture This Productions
Sony ICE Team
F900/F800/F350/PDW700/EX1/EX3/D790/D600
Adobe Premiere Pro CS3 HD/Matrox
Phoenix, AZ

[Curt Pair]

Tim,

As a LONG time adopter to the Sony XD Cam HD format, I do understand, to a point, where you are coming from, and why you feel the way you do! I bought my F350 camcorder several years ago, and have truly loved the format. I often say, if I never shoot tape again, I’ll be a happy camper! Not long after I purchased my F350, the F355 came out… four months later to be exact!

HOWEVER, I got a “SMOKIN’ DEAL” on the F350. That camcorder has TRULY paid for itself SEVERAL times over! Sony came out with an upgrade to the F350s that made them identical to F355’s save two things (true 24p output on the HD SDI output (it has a 3-2 pulldown in 60i) and that it can not shoot 50 GB discs!) In the end.. I have REALLY made out well, and saved a LOT of money in the process!

I would FIRST ask you where you purchased the camera? I think some of the “blame” if there is any, starts there! MANY dealers knew WELL ahead of time what was on the horizon as far as the release of the F800 goes! I have an AWESOME relationship with my Nir Reeches at Band Pro in LA… he couldn’t “confirm nor deny” the existence of such a camera, but in January he suggested I hold off and see what happens at NAB…

Further, Nir indicated that I take a look at Sony’s “history” of releasing products, often they release a model to test the waters so to speak; a scaled down model if you will, and then the following year release the higher end version of that camera.

I did LOTS of research on the PDW-700, and as far back as NOVEMBER of 2008, there were rumors being “leaked” on the internet out of Latin America, Europe and Australia that there was something BIG going to be shown at NAB 2009!

My local Sony rep told me there was no new camera on the horizon. I truly believe that he didn’t know it was coming, as Sony tries to keep a lid on their product developments as much as their competitors. Sometimes that means they don’t share info in house!

Depending on where you purchased the camera… it has been available since last fall! If you “pre-ordered” it, you may have had it sooner! This camera was in HIGH DEMAND, so there weren’t many “sitting on shelves” around the country. Therefore, I have to respectfully disagree with your three month availability comment.

I’m currently on the “Sony Ice Team…” we aid Sony in developing products, marketing them and instructing folks on how to use them. I’m NOT an employee of Sony. I’m more of a consultant. At first, I had the same opinion as the one you have now. However, upon hearing the explanation of how they see the two models co-existing, I do understand their reasoning.

You should know that Sony has NO PLANS to quit manufacturing the 700. In Sony’s eyes, the cameras are “aimed” at two different markets. The 700 is less expensive, the price has just dropped, and is intended to be used by the “news market.” Entities like CBS News/Sports have jumped onto this camera in a HUGE way! So has ABC! These “types” of clients “have no need” for 24p. They don’t want their material shot with that frame rate. Many of the shows shot on CBS are shot at 60i. A few, like 60 Minutes are shot in 30p. They like the progressive look, but don’t want what they perceive as a “hassle” of the mismatch time-codes to be an issue in broadcasting.

For clients like these, the PDW700 is a GREAT camera out of the box! One may never even “need” any of the options… Sony saw the success of other companies utilizing the “modular” approach to releasing cameras. With that in mind, the end user, or entity can CHOOSE what options they need and will use, and pay appropriately.

Therefore, if you will NEVER be a “pool” camera, you don’t have to “pay” for that option. If you never need to “record” from an external source in SD… you don’t have to pay for that either. If you’ve NEVER shot anything in 24p, and don’t think you’ll need it, at least you have the OPTION of changing your mind later.

The release of the PDW700 in this fashion was in direct response to REQUESTS of their customers! Although many folks out there may agree with you, many do not! They didn’t want to pay for all the “bells and whistles” they just didn’t need.

The second market is “production” oriented. In turn, guys like me (and you) who “freelance” for a host of different outlets may need BOTH feature sets! Therefore, I’m willing to pay for the majority of the “options” on the PDW700 as “standard” equipment on the new F800! In fact, there aren’t many “options” for the F800, as it’s really loaded for anything you want to throw at it, out of the box! It’s the best of both worlds! It has all the features of the proven F350, and the higher quality/dual HD frequency selections of the PDW700.

I worked VERY hard to convert MANY of my clients from SD to HD. I accomplished that task with XD Cam HD. I’m on the “other” side of the spectrum! NEARLY ALL of my clients shoot in 24p, with the exception of a few of my news type clients.

I had to take a long hard look at the decision on whether or not to purchase the 700. Sony would like for ALL of their ICE Team to be out there shooting with the 700! The image is gorgeous! However, I had to explain that my clients fell in love with the “film look” of 24p, the over cranking to provide SMOOTH slow motion in post, and a few other features the 700 just doesn’t have. However, the gamma structure on the 700 is MUCH closer to an F900 than my F350!

I was certain, with no indication from Sony, that the next “logical step” for them would have to be what I called an “F1055!” It seemed reasonable to expect those “accustomed” to shooting with the early adaptations of the format, would like the same feature set they currently employ with the higher quality sampling and increased gamma/paint controls. So a marriage between the two cameras the F350 and the PDW700 (Thus my F1055!) was inevitable!

With that being said… I have shot HUNDREDS of productions for clients that wanted an F355! They didn’t know the difference! I think this is MORE than possible for you too! Ask questions upfront. KNOW what will be expected of you! If I REALLY HAVE TO HAVE 24p output to a monitor, than I rent an F355 for the day. Far cheaper than buying that model! In many cases the move to the XD Cam HD format may even fall on your shoulders.

There are a few differences between the models, for sure. HOWEVER, with ALL of the upgrades, your PDW700 is VERY similar to the F800. One feature you “can’t upgrade,” as Sony feels it’s a “production” element to shooting rather than a news element, is the dual filter wheel. I have to admit, I really missed going from the dual filter wheel on my D790/600/F900 to the single wheel on my F350. However, it didn’t take long to “get used to it!” In many respects, I found I could make changes FASTER due to this fact! Now, I love it! I can make changes going from outside to inside (if in preset white balance) with a push of a single button! That means no filter wheel is spinning in the middle of the shot, and the editor can use the entire shot for the full length of its duration!

You will NOT be able to under/over crank. If you’ve been using the 700, you probably haven’t missed that feature. Clients either love it or hate it! Some ALWAYS want to slow it down in post! Some love the freedom from the hassle of rendering that effect. You should know the frame size of the final shot is reduced while in that mode! That’s why some clients prefer to do that “effect” in post. Further, there is NO AUDIO when over/under cranking… I have to try to shoot things with my audio being recorded elsewhere when I shoot this way; or I have to shoot two versions, one with audio. You could use your marketing skills to “explain” why you’d prefer to shoot that shot in a traditional manner: full frame size, and there’s audio! I’ve done that many times, and it always works!

Please take the time to evaluate how you will use the camera. Who is your clientele? Chances are those clients who fell in love with the PDW700 many not want or need the F800. Further, they may not be willing to pay more for you to USE that camera in the field. (that was another issue for me with the F350/700… my clients became accustomed to a price point and didn’t want to alter that!)

I think when you’ve had time to review your situation, after the initial shock and anger have dissipated, you’ll find you’re in a pretty good position. You’re able to upgrade to the majority of the features of the higher priced camera for $5K less than the purchase price of the new model. That’s what happened with me, and I couldn’t be happier!

Curt Pair
Picture This Productions
Sony ICE Team
F900/F800/F350/PDW700/EX1/EX3/D790/D600
Adobe Premiere Pro CS3 HD/Matrox
Phoenix, AZ

[Curt Pair]

I love time lapse stuff, and I’ve been practicing the art for about 12 years now…

First off, what kind of camera will you be using? Still, video, HD? This matters alot now…

I’ve done them with HUGE still frames, and have gotten some great stuff, using “Pocket Wizards” as my intervalometer. When I did TLs with video, I used Beta and Digibeta… since they don’t have intervalometer, I just “rolled” constantly for sometimes HOURS and then used a Quantel Edit Box to make my speed adjustments.

Now that the NEW HD cameras have built in intervalometers, life is easy! Decide how fast you want/need the time lapse to move. The LONGER the interval between frames, the FASTER the time-lapse will look in the end. For example if you shot clouds at 1 frame every 20 seconds, versus 1 frame every second, the first TL will move MUCH faster. There is a GREAT time-lapse calculator on my friend Doug Jensen’s website! https://vortexmedia.com/TIME.html Doug is SO awesome, he’s taken all of the guess work in the terms of “time” out of it for you… check it out, he has two versions… one is “how long will it take to shoot 10 seconds in 24p a 1 frame every second?” That’s the version I use most… I often dial up his website on my phone and then roll! (I usually need to know how long I have to stand there! 🙂 )

If clouds are rolling by faster, or people are in the shot, perhaps the longer frame rates won’t look “right…”

How do you fix that? Well, that’s easy! If you are fortunate enough to have a camera with “frame accumulation” like the ENTIRE XD CAM HD line, by Sony (including the EX cameras!) Dial in the frame accumulation. This is similar to “slow shutter.” What happens is that the camera will “mimic” a longer shutter period, allowing for some “blur” in your shot. This will help SMOOTH out your time-lapse. I use at least 4 frames on EVERYTHING, even my 1 frame every 1 second time lapses!

None of that was your REAL question… but I thought it was a good primer. The other post had great information. I’ve shot time-lapses all over the board, and tried a little of everything… THESE DAYS, I prefer using auto iris… HOWEVER, I live in Arizona! We have VERY brightly lit days, which means I have to dial in serious Neutral Density filters, often with a mattebox, and NOT just with the camera’s built in filters… As the sun goes down, I pull them out… UNLESS I want the shot to “go to black” kind of thing.

I’ll agree with the other post that I often COMPOSITE a few shots together to get my “finished” look. So I may shoot my “day” look as one clip… my sunset as three to four clips and my night shot as another… Why? Because I also induce MORE frame accumulation once the sun goes down…

With a backlit cityscape you’re in for some trial and error. Do you have a few days to try it a few different ways? I’m afraid the auto iris may not work in your situation. If you do try to do this manually… remember a few things in adjusting your iris… 1) make SMALL adjustments! 2) make your adjustments over an extended period of time! (if you’re using an intervalometer, remember your frame rate… 24 frames, 30 frames, etc. equal one second… if you need to OPEN up, say from F4 o 2.8… try to make that “move” over several seconds to help easy the jumpy look; 48, 60 frames, what have you…. think SLOW AND SMOOTH!) 3) If you have that frame accumulation turned on… the iris movement will also be blurred!

There are several different methods that work for people in these situations, just try a few and see what works for you…

Curt Pair
Picture This Productions
Sony ICE Team
F900/F800/F350/PDW700/EX1/EX3/D790/D600
Adobe Premiere Pro CS3 HD/Matrox
Phoenix, AZ

[Curt Pair]

I have to agree with Tim! Don’t get all hung up on the 4:2:0 v 4:2:2 in this price range! Take a look at the FRAME size those camras shoot too! What is the end product? Where will it play? The 330 shoots a 1440 x 1080 frame size… the HVX200 et al, on the Panasonic side shoot MUCH smaller frame sizes (have smaller imagers!), and UP SAMPLE to the “larger” frame size. This will affect your final image and resolution!

Lighting is everything in the world of keying! I’ve keyed all kinds of stuff with BOTH cameras. I have to say, the XD Cam HD format is FAR superior! The HVX200 isn’t really in the same “class” of camcorder as the 330. The 500 and 300 are… however, the frame size is one half the 330, therefore, the Panny’s “appear” faster… (remember, half the size of the sensor, far less pixels to illuminate, thus “better in low light!”) when you double that frame size to accommodate to true 1080, you’ll loose resolution. So by having a “4:2:2” camera that isn’t truly full frame, or even close to full frame HD (the 330 captures 1440 x 1080, but hey, so does the F900!), you’re not truly comparing apples to apples!

Just because it’s 4:2:0 doesn’t mean there’s NO INFORMATION in the blue channel… if that were true, you couldn’t capture an image! Remember, these are results of fractions!

If you really do know how to light green screen work, then really the camera won’t matter! I’ve keyed BLUE SCREEN with DV… the same with F350 XD Cam HD and EX1! I’ve read that doing that, especially in the blue channel is impossible, because they are 4:2:0! Don’t get caught up in the hype! Light the background even and flat (use a waveform monitor to check your work in the field, don’t light the background by eye!), and you’ll get the results you want!

I think you’ve gotten caught up in some marketing efforts; that’s the intention.

Curt Pair
Picture This Productions
Sony ICE Team
F900/F800/F350/PDW700/EX1/EX3/D790/D600
Adobe Premiere Pro CS3 HD/Matrox
Phoenix, AZ

[Curt Pair]

We’ve used Jack’s method too, and it works! If you are TRULY worried about the rotation apparatus, paint it green, cover it, what have you!

You’ll more than likely surprise yourself! Don’t over think it, try to simplify it!

Do you have time/budget for a test shot? That will help too! The second time around will be easier! If you CAN… try taking a laptop… bring in a clip or two, if possible, and try the key right there! You’ll learn what’s working and what’s not! If you try that… shoot the plate FIRST, then match the motion when the actor is in front of the chorma wall.

Curt Pair
Picture This Productions
Sony ICE Team
F900/F800/F350/PDW700/EX1/EX3/D790/D600
Adobe Premiere Pro CS3 HD/Matrox
Phoenix, AZ

[Curt Pair]

Ian,

While I can’t speak for EVERYONE who has responded to this post… I can speak on behalf of Bill Davis. I’ve known him for over 10 years! He is an amazing editor and has a VAST amount of experience! In fact, I believe Bill was the guy in the chair on several of my “first attempts” at pulling off a key… I’ve learned alot since those days, believe me! Although an accomplished shooter, I believe Bill’s perspective is coming from the edit chair. He’s spent COUNTLESS hours editing anything you can think of… He KNOWS what he’s talking about in the post production world.

Even though some of your decisions may seem sound and logical, those with experience may have a different approach. That doesn’t mean that one approach is better or worse, it just means that someone has PROVEN results with a certain method.

I agree, I WOULD NOT use green gel on the background lights! That is overkill to the point of possibly being a detriment… It could result in MORE kick back or spill from the background… if anything, I typically go a completely DIFFERENT route and light my background in the OPPOSITE color spectrum from my talent (tungsten/daylight, separate, but equal!) I learned that from someone I know who works at ILM… if it works for them, why not! They are the KINGS of special effects shots. You know what? IT DOES WORK!

I’ll also tell you that I have several sound technicians in my metro area that work for me AND my competitors… they’ve watched my methodology and then told my competition, only to have dismal results! I’m actually cool with that! There are certain tools that actually make the difference between a successful key and a lousy key.

Bill is correct… I’ve never put it in the terms of “geometry” but none the less, I agree. Separation is EVERYTHING when it comes to “spill” on your backgrounds. Now… keep in mind, if you are just going to have head and shoulders shots, you CAN have the background “seem” too small in your shot, as long as the subject NEVER leaves the green area. You CAN use, as Bill indicated, a “garbage” matte to “fill in” the areas you don’t have enough green, provided that your subject has no “entrance” into that non-existent green area (i.e. hands waving around outside of the green background). Also, if for what ever reason I do shoot all tungsten lights for example for my keying efforts, I will use GEL on the back-light of the subject, only! I will use a 1/4 – 1/2 magenta gel to COMBAT the green spill in smaller set ups. That’s an OPPOSITE color than green and helps reduce the spill. Nothing aids the loss of spill more than “space” (“Z” space if you will) between the subject and the background. I typically WILL NOT SHOOT A KEY in an environment where I CAN NOT get at LEAST 10 feet of separation! It will not work, without a LOT of post work… sometimes including roto-scoping!

We are often hired to come in behind others as a “last ditch effort” to get a good clean key… I’ve written SEVERAL posts on my methods, and I’m sure you can find them if you take the time… I will reiterate one thing: get a waveform monitor to measure your lighting on the background! My same buddy at ILM shared this fact with me about 8-9 years ago… I can’t thank him enough for that one! That is the true “secret” to pulling off a clean, successful chroma key, especially in HD! Because Zebra stripes occur when a certain, designated IRE level is present… there is no way to know what that level is without a WFM! You may have the stripes set at 75, but the light level is really 82… the stripes will still be there! So even if your ENTIRE viewfinder has stripes… it may not be evenly lit! If you measured your light levels with a WFM, you’ll KNOW if it’s even! If you don’t own one, RENT one! It WILL be worth it!

Pulling off a good key is all about lighting… it’s not so much WHAT KIND of lights you’re using, but how they are used. I will agree, these lights look a lot like Westcott TD5 Spider Lites. I use those nearly every single day as my “key light / fill light” for interviews… HOWEVER, I don’t think they are appropriate for lighting a chroma background. I’d suggest a florescent along the lines of a Kino Flo or equivalent, or a “fresnel” that you can spot and flood. Again, if you don’t have them, and they are accessible, consider renting them! They aren’t that expensive to rent.

Many try to cut corners when shooting on a tight budget… unfortunately this can present NIGHTMARES in post when trying to key… I know… I tried everything for years… it never worked well… now, when I use a WFM, light evenly, and have enough separation, I can typically key something in 5 clicks of a mouse or less in “Keylight” inside of After Effects, with phenomenal results!

Bottom line is this: TEST, TEST, TEST! Set up your gear and shoot something… go back and try to key it in post! It may or may not work. YOU WILL LEARN something if you do that! I promise. Hopefully, the next time, if you had less than expected results, you won’t make the same mistakes… After enough shoots, you won’t make any! Don’t make them in front of your client! That’s the worst!

One last thing… I’d recommend that you do some research on your NLE or post application to find out what LEVEL of IRE to light your background for keying… for example… I had a client recently who wanted me to key the background at 40 IRE! That’s nearly 1/2 of what I normally would do! He was CERTAIN this was correct… He told me he used “Ultimatte” do pull the keys. I emailed the company, they sent me specs. They prefer a 1:1 ratio of lighting for the subject and background. “If anything light the background BRIGHTER than the subject… The closer you can get the background to 80-82 IRE, the better!” (keep in mind, this is for THEIR program!) I shot the footage the way the client wanted… it was HORRIBLE! It didn’t work… At the end of the shoot… I took 5 minutes to rearrange the lighting, put a subject in front of the camera, and shot about 10 seconds with an IRE level set to 81. I took a picture with my cell phone of the WFM, showing the “recommended settings”… The client later told me “the last little interview worked… the rest didn’t!” Since, I’ve contacted EVERY manufacturer of a “keying” product, to find out the specified requirements for the best key… they vary, but if I ask a client what they’re using, it always works out.

Good luck. Let us know how it comes out!

Curt

Curt Pair
Picture This Productions
Sony ICE Team
F900/F800/F350/PDW700/EX1/EX3/D790/D600
Adobe Premiere Pro CS3 HD/Matrox
Phoenix, AZ

[Curt Pair]

Brad is correct. “One way” of trying to chroma key is the use of Zebra stripes in the viewfinder.

In the “old days” I did that myself. HOWEVER, I couldn’t GUARANTEE my keys, the way I do now. Zebra stripes set to 70 IRE tell the user that in this “area of the picture” there is a light level of “at least” 70% IRE… that might be 76%, 80%, who knows with the stripes… It’s nearly IMPOSSIBLE to get uniform and even lighting by using that method. The right side of the picture may have stripes, and not the left side, by the time the whole viewfinder is showing stripes, you have no idea where your true IRE levels are across the frame. I know… We got “lucky” a few times and had some disasters with others.

It wasn’t until someone showed me the TRUE measuring tool for light in an electronic video camera, a wave form monitor, that my chroma key work began to stand out from the others in my market.

WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT OWNING this gear? Heck, I RENTED a WFM for years! They are about $75 per day, in the SD world… a little more in the HD world. I bill that back to the client. I’m sure others do too. I tell clients that we may cost more “up front” in terms of equipment, but I GUARANTEE our keys on the first pass with minimal effort. That CAN NOT be done with out using a waveform monitor. Once clients give it a try, they are hooked! They see the benefit of the money they are paying.

By the way, the WFMs built into monitors really don’t cut it, either… they are only a reference. Remember, the “monitor” is just that, a monitor and not a measuring tool. I’ve used these types of monitors “side by side” with the real reference gear, and they just don’t compare. When performing a chroma key, you are shooting in an advanced state. This isn’t a simple interview. There are so many things that can go wrong, it’s better off to begin with the best of your ability.

I’ve actually keyed shots with Lowell lights! Not to say they aren’t “good” lights, I just generally use different instruments these days. Again, it’s more TECHNIQUE than fancy lights. If the principals are applied correctly, desirable results occur. I will only stress that a WFM makes the process not only easier, but provides a better outlook on the final result.

The bottom line is: the choice is YOURS! Do what you want. I’ve just been really fortunate with folks sharing knowledge and wanted to “pay it forward…” When adjustments were made to our process, our results were noticeably better. Thus, we became “first calls” and experts in this area. Thus, we’ve made more money. We don’t guess any longer, we KNOW!

Curt Pair
Picture This Productions
Sony ICE Team
F900/F800/F350/PDW700/EX1/EX3/D790/D600
Adobe Premiere Pro CS3 HD/Matrox
Phoenix, AZ

[Curt Pair]

What I try to do BEFORE I go into the field is find out how my client will “key” footage (if we aren’t cutting the material!). I ask them what hardware/software they will be using. Then I spend about 10 minutes on the internet looking to find the answers to the “IRE” question.

Within SECONDS, I was able to find a link on the Ultimatte website that states they’d like a “1:1 ratio of foreground and background lighting for our software to work properly…” For clarification, I sent them an email… and THEY TOLD ME to use 80 IRE for best results with their software package!

I found the Imagica website in seconds (the MAKERS of Primatte… although they don’t have the IRE level suggestions in their posted “whitepapers…,” they do post an email address and phone number to contact them directly. I have done so, just to satisfy my own curiosity. I called Scott Gross on his cell phone and asked him directly… “the what levels? I have no idea… I don’t know what an IRE is! In 14 years of selling Primatte, no one has ever asked that question before! It would probably be good for me to know too! I will call the guy who wrote the program in Japan tonight and get back to you tomorrow!”

It was that easy to find out… I’m looking forward to Scott’s response!

So I recommend that procedure for ANYONE who performs chroma keying! I’ve found other “IRE” settings for different programs and software. (Keylight for example suggests “74 IRE” in their whitepapers!) It’s best if you KNOW the process all the way through the post process for your footage… Then set up accordingly!

Good luck and happy Keying!

Curt Pair
Picture This Productions
Sony ICE Team
F900/F800/F350/PDW700/EX1/EX3/D790/D600
Adobe Premiere Pro CS3 HD/Matrox
Phoenix, AZ