Curt Pair
Forum Replies Created
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Craig is correct again! I’ll be honest… I spent about 5 minutes looking for the update, and found about 8 links to it! One was on another forum… I know some of those guys as they are “Sony ICE Team” members too, so I thought to be a reputable place to find and use it… it worked great.
You are correct… Sony doesn’t let authorized Dealers update the camera either…. HOWEVER, I was told a “minimum of two weeks and as long as a five week turn around time…”
When I found out that it takes about 20 minutes per camera to perform… and Sony wanted $100 per unit, AND I could be out of EX cameras for a month… I chose to go “another route…”
I’m certainly by NO MEANS suggesting that EVERYONE do this! Warranty issues, comfort level, etc. come into play here… each owner has to make that decision for themselves.
I am saying there are alternative and proven methods if you wish to do it yourself. I KNOW an individual who did this them self, then had a “head phone jack” issue… Sony didn’t realize the update hadn’t been done by their own company… they covered the repair under warranty!
That may NOT happen in every circumstance! User/Updater be warned!
Curt Pair
Picture This Productions
Sony ICE Team
F900/F800/F350/PDW700/EX1/EX3/D790/D600
Adobe Premiere Pro CS3 HD/Matrox
Phoenix, AZ -
Walter,
I can certainly sympathize with your situation! I honestly have “heard” a few times from others of what you are describing, but those typically ended up being operator error. Being a Producer, I know it can be upsetting when you put your project in the hands of others only to have non-satisfactory results.
I’m NOT SAYING that is the case here… but perhaps. Was the camera set up in 35Mbps (i.e. “HQ” mode)?
I’ve shot ALL KINDS of outdoor stuff for Sony to use in marketing, trade shows, etc., with NO problems what so ever. I will admit… I’m an AVID owner’s manual reader! I like to know as much about gear as I can before using it! I know most of the settings before heading into the field. If I don’t remember, I ALWAYS have a manual with me.
The bad key: It may be due to the exposure of the background. I would suggest, for ANY acquisition format, that you check with the manufacturer of YOUR keying process to find out what they “suggest” or mandate the IRE exposure levels to ensure a proper key.
Recently, I had a customer that MANDATED we set up a key at 40 IRE! I told them that was ENTIRELY TOO LOW! I even called “Ultimatte”, his keying company/software of choice! They told me they suggest 80 IRE for all of their keys! So, he was using HALF of the levels needed for the software to work correctly! As you can guess… it didn’t work! We were hired again… by the same company… this time “use 45 IRE!” I think you can guess how that came out! I was smart… at the end of the shoot, I set it up how WE would do it, according to Ultimatte’s suggestions, and they said it keyed perfectly… “Now we know…”
If you’d like, I can send you a link to some footage on my YouTube channel for you to review. Most of that EX footage was shot in Yellowstone and the Grand Tetons parks… looks amazing!
What frame rate are you shooting? I mix it up, but haven’t noticed any problems in ANY particular frame rate.
Curt
Curt Pair
Picture This Productions
Sony ICE Team
F900/F800/F350/PDW700/EX1/EX3/D790/D600
Adobe Premiere Pro CS3 HD/Matrox
Phoenix, AZ -
Craig is correct, if you have the latest firmware in the EX1 (the EX3’s don’t need it!) you CAN indeed record to the SDHC media. I recently UPGRADED the firmware myself… I know that MANY on this forum say it can’t be done by the owner, but it can indeed be done, if you find the software on the web! It’s no harder than flashing a bios of a motherboard, or drive!
I’m a “Sony ICE Team” member, and I wasn’t able to secure the firmware upgrade from them… (to do it myself) however, MANY places on the net have it, and it’s relatively easy to find.
IF YOU ARE NOT COMPUTER SAVVY, I would not recommend trying this yourself! Send it to a Sony Service Center.
I have upgraded 6 of these cameras myself and have had no problems! the first one WAS scary! But it’s quite simple. I use all of the cameras quite often, and couldn’t wait to have them upgraded… I didn’t want to do it in stages either… so I just did it myself.
That being said… the NEW cards from HOODMAN USA, ROCK! I’ve had NO PROBLEMS what so ever with their adapter or cards. They are fairly fast in data transfer rates, and stable as all get out! You can use a few other manufacturers cards in their adapter, but theirs are stable and “guaranteed” to work! Give them a try.
If you do, then Craig is correct, it’s NOT that expensive to use them once and then store them! “Cost of doing business” applies now. One draw back: Over/under cranking can’t be done with the SDHC cards! (up to 40fps with the Hoodman’s have been tested and approved!) So if you don’t need that feature, save some money and use the Hoodman cards! You’ll be glad you did!
Curt
Curt Pair
Picture This Productions
Sony ICE Team
F900/F800/F350/PDW700/EX1/EX3/D790/D600
Adobe Premiere Pro CS3 HD/Matrox
Phoenix, AZ -
Walter,
I would like to know how you “shot” the footage… what kind of lights, how they were set up, the camera settings, etc.
THEN: I’d like to know how you cut the material, and how you tried to key it out! (i.e. FCP, Avid, Premiere, After Effects, Vegas, what?)
I have TONS of experience in chroma keying footage, and got the same results I would from ANY high end camera (for use on TV, not film) out of the EX cameras.
I would say 90% of keying is LIGHTING, LIGHTING, LIGHTING! If the light set up is done properly, I might even be able to key shots with “Hi-8!” An exaggeration, for sure, but I’ve done amazing things in “mini DV!” I’ve keyed stuff that people say “can’t be done!” HOWEVER, my set up for EVERY format is the same! The way in which we use it, is THE SAME!
In fact, in my presentation at the SONY booth during the NAB show this year, I PROVED keying with 4:2:0 footage is easy and clean, provided the shooter used the right equipment in the proper manner.
YOU MUST USE a waveform monitor to ensure a clean key… there is no other way around it… try it, and you’ll see. There is NO guess work in exposure when a waveform monitor is used.
If you use a WFM, and expose the background properly, you’ll find that you can do most keys in After Effects with the Keylight effect in under five mouse clicks! I’ve done it with the EX line, the XD Cam HD line, HD Cam, DVC Pro HD, Beta SP, DigiBeta, DV Cam, DVC Pro and even Mini DV! Some formats have “better uses” than others… For example, I’d NEVER take a mini DV key and put to film as a main playback, but for TV, it works fine. Most clients BEG me to teach them how we perform chroma keys, because they work, and work BEAUTIFULLY on the first pass! It’s all in the equipment and the way it’s used.
I’m not talking about “fancy lighting set ups” either… the one constant we use, no matter what, is a waveform monitor. It is the KEY ingredient in pulling off a chroma key! (Yes, pun intended!)
So to clarify, I’d love to know the ENTIRE process you went through to get such “horrendous” keys. Perhaps I can help clear up some of the workflow.
Curt
Curt Pair
Picture This Productions
Sony ICE Team
F900/F800/F350/PDW700/EX1/EX3/D790/D600
Adobe Premiere Pro CS3 HD/Matrox
Phoenix, AZ -
Brain,
I’m glad you are not only using your EX1 camcorders, but able to work with them and enjoying the experience.
Until NAB 2009, I have been under the impression, from those at Apple(I won’t mention names to protect the guilty!), that FCP would first have to transcode a clip shot with an EX1/3 to quicktime BEFORE you could edit with that file! That is what I mean by “editing natively”… FCP didn’t allow the editing of MXF files or EX1/3 files without a transcode to QT first. Now, I do know from several of my buddies using the system, and my own VERY limited use, that the trancode process went fairly quickly, but the fact that it had to happen at all didn’t sit well with me…
Sony now has a third party vendor/partner that has a program called (please forgive me if this is inaccurate, again, I migrated AWAY from FCP for various reasons 4 years ago!) “CineMon.” It is a “plug in” that runs “invisibly,” that allows FCP users to use and edit MXF files and those created by EX1/3 cameras WITHOUT having to transcode to a Quicktime file. In fact CineMon works with other formats inside FCP too! Now, FCP users won’t have to create or transcode MOST common file acquisition types to QT to edit them! That’s fantastic.
I too often wonder why one would take a recorded file, inflate it to “ProRes” and then work with that file. If it was shot 4:2:0, how on Earth is ProRes making it better, really? Material is only as good as it is caputred… you can’t make it better by transcoding it! Now, CAPTURING material with the ProRes codec, is a different story, that I get. If you go out of your EX camera with the HD SDI, and CAPTURE it into FCP and use that codec, than I “get” the value of that.
Curt Pair
Picture This Productions
Sony ICE Team
F900/F350/700/EX1/EX3/D790/D600
Adobe Premiere Pro CS3 HD/Matrox
Phoenix, AZ -
Ronn,
For me… AE CS3 works because of my Matrox Axio HD system. I think the MATROX portion of that is the reason why… I think their codec is what allows my breakout box/card to make that happen. Not sure… I just open AE… then import and MXF file, drag it to the comp, and it works… I’m sorry. I know I sound horrible on this one, but I don’t know why mine works and yours doesn’t… I do feel for you though.
I have used On-location… The scopes aren’t as accurate, but that’s a good start! There are latency issues. I did use that for about a year… it is a little slower. I just got a Leader 5330 WFM/VCTR/video monitor, and love it.. it is pricey, but WAY cheaper than an ASTRO! I got it for $5800! UNLIKE Astro, the leader is TEST equipment BEFORE it’s a picture monitor! That’s cool! It takes 2 HDSDI ins, which makes it easier to match cameras, if you need to do that sort of thing.
If you have a full size XD, you CAN get an SD WFM and use that via the VBS out (test out) of the camera! That works too! I found this really small Leader on Ebay for $200! It’s only a 3 inch screen, but it runs off an NP1, so that’s great too! I tested it side by side of a Leader 5800! It was dead on! I will use it for chroma work… I now use the 5330 for everyday shooting… It has a focus assist thing, an exposure thing, plus the scopes and confidence monitors… It’s made a world of difference in my daily shooting.
Curt
Curt Pair
Picture This Productions
Sony ICE Team
F900/F350/700/EX1/EX3/D790/D600
Adobe Premiere Pro CS3 HD/Matrox
Phoenix, AZ -
Brett,
I think you need to make certain that you are comparing apples to apples in your assessment of XD Cam EX and XD Cam HD. Now days there are MULTIPLE flavors of XD Cam HD (or what it referred to as “optical”). There are full frame, 50Mbps and 35Mbps HD models.
I think that you should remember too that GLASS makes the difference! Keep in mind that the F900 CineAlta HD Cam camcorders have shot at the 1440 X 1080 frame size for years! It is an industry staple! The decks “output” that 1440 image out to 1920.
I often place my F350, Optical Disc footage STRAIGHT into 1920 timelines, even though shot at 1440, and MOST of my clients can’t tell the difference… even when MIXING with F900 footage!
That being said, the stock lens’ on the EX line are very nice. However, with the EX3 you have the ability to increase your range.
Some of your question must be answered by you and your clients. HOW do they want delivery of the footage? That’s the most important question. Many of today’s cameras are “acquisition” based. This is CERTAINLY true with the EX line. You wouldn’t want to “archive” an SxS card. It’s far too costly to do so. If you shot XD Cam Optical, then certainly that is an acquisition format, storage format and archival format.
If you choose to shoot with an EX1, you MUST decide what you are going to do with the footage! Save on a hard drive, Blue Ray DVD, XD Cam optical disc, etc.
So what is the “Accepted” material shot by broadcasters? I think that depends on the area of the globe where it will be broadcast. For the MOST PART, in America, HD is “now” 1080 x 1920 for nearly ALL HD BROADCASTS. A very few select broadcasters use 720 x 1280 (ABC network and Fox), but the majority prefer the larger frame size. This is why “another” camera manufacturer starting with a “P” and ending with a “C” have chosen to produce many of their cameras in “native, full size HD” of 1080 x 1920.
Some cameras shoot in 540 x 960! (those made by that “other” manufacturer) and upscale to the 1080 x 1920 frame size! (Do the math, the frame size is HALF of “full HD!) Some cameras shoot in 720 X 960. Some in 720 x 1280. Some in 1080 x 1440. Some in 1080 x 1920. Some even larger… I think you need to KNOW where your footage will broadcast and then you’ll have your answer.
Remember this: It’s ALWAYS better to OVER SAMPLE and then down scale the footage; instead of the other way around! So even if you will deliver in say 720 x 1280, the image will look MUCH BETTER if acquired in 1080 x 1920 and then down scaled.
Will the footage “match” or look as good as others? ABSOLUTELY! Is this footage accepted by MY clients? ABSOLUTELY! I’ll be honest… most of my clients want a single medium delivered to them… therefore, I TRANS CODE the EX material to optical disc. They mandate this. I could just as easily deliver on an HDD. They choose not to “go that route…”
I think that with their physical size and abilities, the EX3’s will do wonders for your shoots. I don’t think you’ll have any trouble with compatibility or “acceptance” once you figure out your delivery methods.
Curt Pair
Picture This Productions
Sony ICE Team
F900/F350/700/EX1/EX3/D790/D600
Adobe Premiere Pro CS3 HD/Matrox
Phoenix, AZ -
Ed & Paul,
One thing you HAVE to keep in mind when looking into cutting this footage, and the problems that your comrades are having, is that APPLE does NOT want their FCP users cutting anything NATIVELY! This is the reason we migrated away from that platform (FCP). You can still be “mac based” but AVID, Premiere, Vegas, even Edius, & Quantel will allow users to cut NATIVELY in most of the latest codec/formats out there. You won’t have to go thru the painstaking process of using a “Pro Res” codec, and the time it takes (either on the front end or back end)to conform to their process.
I can say that I haven’t been able to watch Noah’s disc series… However, I have seen all of Doug’s (through friends who have purchased them and wanted my opinions…) Doug DOES have “demo footage” in his series, and does do some great explanations of the editing process HE USES, which is on FCP! He had some eye opening tricks up his sleeves that I never even though of! Like for example, if your end product is on DVD… why cut in HD? Cut in SD and you’ll have more options available to you… he then explains his thought process… Pretty slick, I must admit.
So as far as your post process is concerned, it’s really all up to the edit platform you use. Sony has a workflow up on their website, check that out!
Here they have workflow strategies for Premiere, FCP, AVID, Vegas and Edius! Great resource!
Curt Pair
Picture This Productions
Sony ICE Team
F900/F350/700/EX1/EX3/D790/D600
Adobe Premiere Pro CS3 HD/Matrox
Phoenix, AZ -
Once you have the firmware upgrade, you’ll have no problems… out of the box, it’s only 1080 59.94 in and out, regardless of the signal recorded…
I hadn’t tried this with our F900 yet, but I will now. I have tried this with our PDW700 and it worked great… when I tested the 700 and the 24 option, it never occurred to try this!
I do know that when I shot in 23.98 with a 650 HD Cam, it DID go into the EX30 fine, but output only at 59.94. I’m told by Sony the firmware upgrade solves those issues.
Curt Pair
Picture This Productions
Sony ICE Team
F900/F350/700/EX1/EX3/D790/D600
Adobe Premiere Pro CS3 HD/Matrox
Phoenix, AZ -
Jeremy,
I will tell you honestly that LIGHTING is the absolute “key” (no pun intended) in a successful chroma key shoot.
I’ll tell you that I have a friend who works at Lucas Arts… he was visiting once, saw how we “keyed…” laughed at me and then shared some amazing advice and knowledge! NOW… I’m hired all the time to go back and RE SHOOT for those who have screwed it up! I actually go to the length of telling clients if they can’t key our footage in three mouse clicks or less in Keylight, cleanly, we’ll give it to them for free! That’s how solid the methodology is! (often, I only have to click once in Keylight to get the key, and it’s incredible! Time to export!)
I will tell you that you MUST use a waveform monitor to light your subject. I refuse to give away ALL of my techinques in this forum, after all, I want to stay employed, but if you wish to contact me directly, I’d be happy to share what I have learned over the years.
It is critical to KNOW what platform will be editing your footage, by that I mean, Premiere, Avid, FCP, Edius, Vegas, Quantel, etc. Each have an optimum range for key illumination. I have found a great “mid-range” of lighting the key background somewhere between 68-72 IRE.
I’d frame the shot, at it’s WIDEST point, and remove the talent. Then I would light the background. Keep an eye on your vector scope! You are trying to create a SOLID, thin line, as straight as possible in the 68-72 IRE range… if that line has some “bulk” to it, your lighting is NOT even! You can pan a light, add a light what have you to rectify the problem.
Typically, in the past, and it’s slightly modified now, for head and shoulder shots, I use a Westcott TD5 Spider light, in softboxes with grids for the key and fill, a 1K Mole, fully flooded with 216 gel, on each side for the background, and then, depending on the person or persons, I will use either Mole 150s or Dedo Lights as a hair/shoulder light.
Here’s the important tip: Once you have the background exposed properly and have a thin, flat line between 68-72 ire, DO NOT TOUCH THE IRIS again! This is VERY IMPORTANT!
To light the talent, walk lights in closer or move them back to light by eye, or what you like on your monitor. If you can’t get what you want, don’t touch the iris, change instruments… often people of darker complexions need more lighting… we do a lot of this type of shooting with professional athletes… I will have a 1K Mole in a softbox standing by for the extra punch, if necessary.
My VERY FIRST “PAID” SHOOT with my F350 XD Cam HD camera was a green screen shoot for NASCAR! I was nervous beyond belief… I’d NEVER tried keying with this camera… we shot 130 driver “tag line” type things with various stars of NASCAR… (in a single day! The clips were between 10-30 seconds each.) Using the Lucas method, I was able to take the footage to the office, copy the disc to the system and be in After Effects inside a half an hour… I then AUTOMATED the key process by opening the MXF file, applied Keylight, clicking in a corner, removing the green, and saving the file with alpha. NASCAR wanted the files uploaded to their server… they gave me an FTP site. I set up the automation and went to dinner… when I came back, all the keying was done. I started uploading to their server…. they had everything by noon the next day! They had given me 14 days to complete the project… you can imagine how impressed they were! I was able to pull this off for NASCAR with a single click in Keylight. I checked the matte first before automating.
Chroma Keying is all set up. I won’t kid you… I do have a few more “secrets” but a man has to keep a few things to himself! This was presented to me by someone who does this full time at Lucas Arts, and it worked fine for me for years… So much so that we came behind many in the pro sports world to reshoot things for national broadcasters and arenas needing chroma footage. When Star Wars Episode 2 came out, Luscas modified the methodology, we now emplore that and it works even better. I have shared that with folks, but they get mad at me when they don’t get the same results… Oh the padawans…
Curt Pair
Picture This Productions
Sony ICE Team
F900/F350/700/EX1/EX3/D790/D600
Adobe Premiere Pro CS3 HD/Matrox
Phoenix, AZ