Bob Zelin
7
COW Coins
Forum Replies Created
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disclaimer –
I have NEVER build a Hackintosh, and I know this is a FCP X forum (so dare I mention anything that is not FCP X related) –
but –
https://9to5mac.com/2017/06/13/maxed-out-imac-pro-cost/
potentially a blown out iMac Pro will cost $17,000 (the starting price $4999 won’t do much for a power machine).I read the Davinci Resolve 14 specs for building a Win 10 PC (which of course can run Premiere, Media Composer, etc.) with the ASUS X99 Delux motherboard. So while many people are now saying “#1, I am not building a computer, and #2 it won’t run FCP-X” – you are going to want the Vega 64 (or some GPU card) and a lot of RAM and a fast processor (and if you say “why would I need that ” – then keep using your Thunderbolt 3 iMac that you bought last week !). So if a powerhouse iMac Pro will cost this much HOW MUCH is Apple planning on charging for a 2019 killer Mac Pro (compared to a HP Z840 with NVidia, Dell Precision or ASUS home made system).
At some point, Apple has to say “there is no way we can charge 20 grand for a computer, no matter what it does”.
Maybe I am wrong.Bob Zelin
Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com -
Hi Paulo –
They say that there are no stupid questions. Well, you may have asked the first stupid question. You are obviously more than happy to PAY for a course (including an MBA course) on “how to make it in business”. You don’t want a course in “how to use FCP X” or “how to use an Arri Alexa” or “how to light a scene for a chroma key”. You want a course on “how do I get business”.You do NOT need an MBA, you do not need to GO TO SCHOOL. You need to go out there and GET REJECTED. That’s right – get your moral destroyed, and rejected.
You ask –
how do film/TV rights get sold around the world, what’s the decision-making process when putting together a TV schedule, how to decide which shows to develop…REPLY-
go over to your local auto repair shop. Ask the owner “do you do oil changes”. Of course, he will say yes. Now, you should ask him “if I bring you customers, will you give me 10% of the business” and of course, he will say YES.
NOW – go knock on your next door neighbors door and say “hello, my name is Paulo, and I represent Paulos Wonderful Oil Change Service, would you be interested in getting the best oil change of your life”. And your neighbor will slam the door in your face. Now, go to the next apartment, or next home down the block. And ask the same question. Do this 100 times, and you will get a few people to allow you to do an oil change in their car.
And the owner of the auto repair shop, in fact, will give you 10% of the business that you brought in !!!! WOW – now you are a business man. And no one charged you for an MBA degree !!!!!OK, you now know how to get people to get their oil changed. Now its time to sell a TV Show. Find a producer that has a completed TV show (perhaps you have one). Say to this producer (maybe you are the producer) – if I sell your show, will you give me 10% of the rights to your show ?”. Now, go to the first TV Network or Cable channel in your country (are you in the US ? ). Guess what – it will take you a LOT of phone calls to find out who to even speak to. And if by some miracle, you find out, they won’t meet with you. SO you persist – and you keep calling. And out of all the people you call, maybe ONE PERSON will agree to meet with you. And the odds are, they will hate the show, and say “sorry, it’s not very good”. So you find ANOTHER Producer, and you get his show, make the same deal (10%), and you do this all over again. And you FAIL again, and you do it AGAIN. And FINALLY FINALLY – someone agrees to buy your low budget show (it’s a show on how to do an oil change on your car !!!!) – and it’s at 3am in the morning. And it’s a big hit. And the cable channel says to you – “hey Paulo, that was a good show, can you do a show for us on how to build hot rod muscle cars – but we are only willing to pay XXX for each episode”.
AND NOW YOU ARE A PRODUCER !!!!!!! Oh my God – you made it !!!!!
All these morons (possibly even you) have no problem “paying” to learn how to “make it” You learn how to “make it” by going out there and getting REJECTED. When you keep at it, you eventually get a bite (like going fishing). Eventually, a fish is going to bite the bait on your fishing line, and you will eat dinner.
This is the same thing with an auto repair place, a restaurant, a bar, or a TV Production company. You go out and make a bunch of crappy TV pilots, and no one wants them (even thought you thought it was good), and you keep pitching the show, and eventually, someone says “ok, we will buy that show”. And THAT is how you make it !
Isn’t there an easier way ? YES – marry the daughter of an executive of a cable TV station, who will give you an assurance that any crap that you produce will be purchased, and distributed by the station (because he wants his daughter to have a nice life).
Bob Zelin
Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com -
Just like Scott said – you did not state your application.
Want to keep movies, music and photos on it. Want to edit with a single computer, particularly MP4 or h264 files – sure this is fine.
The TS-453 is NOT a shared storage system for professional video editing. QNAP makes tons of products that can do exactly that, but the TS-453 (and TS-531X) are not those products. Your starting product for pro video editing is the
TVS-871T, and it goes up from there (for not much more money). Bottom line – QNAP, Synology, Netgear ReadyNAS – if you don’t have 8 spinning platters, you are not going to do shared 4K video editing.Bob Zelin
Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com -
you still have not explained why you are going to use NFS. What are your client computers ?
BobBob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com -
sorry for the delay – I actually have to work once in a while –
you write –” The MacPro5,1 can access the test array at 1.1GB/s over NFS, according to AJA System Test. The fact that I am not seeing the same results over Thunderbolt 2 indicated a problem, which meant taking steps to isolate the problem.”
REPLY – wow, I never get good results with NFS. I am surprised that you want to proceed with NFS and not SMB.
I only use NFS as a last resort on Mac’s.” While 6.3Gb/s is “good enough” performance, I have seen multiple screenshots here from people reporting better over Thunderbolt 2. There is a bottleneck somewhere in the config, and though the performance is “good enough”, that bottleneck could result in other issues down the road.”
REPLY – I have seen, that based on the generation of the computer, the results of Thunderbolt 2 (using the same damn thunderbolt to 10G adaptor) varies widely from Mac to Mac. This is very discouraging, and I don’t have an answer for it. I have seen Thunderbolt 2 Mac Book Pro’s dramatically outperform a Mac Pro 6,1 on the same network with the same Tbolt adaptor. I don’t know why.
The configurations listed in my previous message were strictly troubleshooting configurations with the network adapters direct connected to each other. No switch and no array, though for what it’s worth I did also test with a switch — specifically, a Dell N4032 with jumbo frames enabled.
REPLY – you will find quite a jump when you enable an MTU of 9000. Many people “poo poo” jumbo frames but for 10G performance, it makes a big deal.
The network performance tool I used (iPerf) generates raw TCP packets and does not read/write to storage at all. One system runs iPerf in transmit mode, the other runs in receive mode. Hard drive throughput is not a factor at either end, nor is protocol overhead as is inherent to NFS, AFP or SMB (the latter of which I’m fully aware is hindered in OSX 10.11 and up).
REPLY – while SMB is hindered in 10.11 and up, you can disable SMB signing. You can turn of DS_Store. NFS, I don’t know – I don’t get great results. The LumaForge guys are the only ones who are getting really great performance with NFS.
Lastly, I *do* do IT for a living. Please do not make assumptions. You don’t know me, my qualifications, my experience, my plans, or the situation. Also, your entire post seemed to serve little purpose but to promote your turn-key solution friends and to sow fear about even the mere thought of pursuing a DIY path. Though I respect your knowledge and experience, you seem to make this forum an astoundingly hostile environment for people who might wish to learn something about data storage.
REPLY – I figured that if you were already dealing with Tiger Spaces, you could simply get a nice Tiger Store or Tiger Serve system, that will work out of the box, without all the fuss you are going thru.
https://www.tiger-technology.com/appliances/Bob Zelin
Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com -
people always ask me “why are you promoting QNAP these days”. Because they are cheap, and the products work (and they are reliable). They are “everything to everyone” – because ALL of these products, like LumaForge, Facilis, EditShare, AVID, Studio Network Solutions, ProMax, etc. are JUST SERVERS. They are all fast computers with a big disk drive array connected to them via a disk drive host adaptor card, and a 10G/40G/or Fiber channel network card that attaches to a network switch. Do you really think that a Facilis Terrablock or Studio Network Solutions would not work wonderfully in a hospital to retrieve patient records. All these products are generic servers, and certain companies promote themselves in certain businesses.
Could the Promise SanLkink3 issue be a firmware issue ? Maybe, but I do not know who to call at Apple (or Promise) to say “hey, what’s up with the Write times ?”. The SanLink2 has better write performance (with Tbolt 2 computers) than the SanLink3. I use Sonnet adaptors for thunderbolt 2 because they cost less money, and I can get them on the phone in the United States. They are both similar, and wonderful products. I intend to re test Akitio adaptors as well soon – the original thunderbolt 2 to 10G adaptors developed thermal issues, which is why I stopped using them. Perhaps they have learned their lesson (as QNAP and Synology has) and maybe their products cost less money, and work just as well. I have not looked at their adaptors in a while.
You asked about Promise rack systems. Promise relies on fiber channel connection and SAN systems. I don’t do these – they cost too much money to setup and require too much administration. My client base wants CHEAP and reliable (and fast). Other Promise products like the SanLink series and the Promise Pegasus Thunderbolt 2 and Thunderbolt 3 RAID arrays are all wonderful products.
bob Zelin
Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com -
I have absolutely no idea of what on earth you are doing, or trying to accomplish.
you write –
“a new high speed network storage system at my facility”
what high speed network storage system at my facility ? A Small Tree, a Facilis, or are you building it yourself ?you are using Small Tree cards. Have you called Small Tree, who offers excellent support ?
And why on earth are you using Twinax cables, and why did you purchase Small Tree cards with Twinax connectors (SFP+). In 2017, the world uses Cat 6 and Cat6A cabling for Ethernet connection. Is your switch going to be 3 meters away from all of your editing systems ? Exactly what switch are you planning on implementing ? A Cisco 10GbE SFP+ switch. So you will add 10G SFP+ transceivers to every one of these cards ? Isn’t this a little ridiculous in 2017 ?
In your test results, you specify your iPerf results, but you do NOT specify what you are testing. I don’t give a crap about line speed from iPerf. You have to test against a RAID array to verify that you will have speeds that will be acceptable for professional video editing. SO – are you testing the performance of the single internal boot drive of these computers ? Well, that makes no sense.
In Configuration # 1, you say that you are getting 10Gb/sec.
In Configuration # 2, you say that you are getting 6.3 Gb/sec
In Configuration # 3, you say that you are getting 2.5 Gb/sec10 Gb/sec is 1250 MB/sec. You will never achieve this speed, not even with Thunderbolt 3. Typical performance with properly working computers is 800 MB/sec. With Thunderbolt 3, you will see a MAXIMUM of 1100 MB/sec in real life – and that’s with a new iMac or MacBook Pro with a Promise SanLink3 thunderbolt 3 to 10G adaptor.
6.3 Gb/sec is 787 MB/sec is EXCELLENT for Thunderbolt 2 performance. You will be lucky to maintain this performance. RED 6K Media (Red Epic Dragon with 5:1 compression) only requires 143 MB/sec. 6.3 Gb/sec is nothing to complain about.
2.5 Gb/sec is 312 MB/sec. Gee – your other computers are working properly, MAYBE ITS THE COMPUTER ? Maybe you are testing with SMB, and did not disable SMB signing. Maybe you should install a REAL RAID ARRAY to test against. Even with that said, you are still doing 3 times the rate of a 1G connection, so your editing systems will still work.
I am not sure what this “micro management” testing is all about. You buy a system from a manufacturer, and you make it work. If you have problems, you call that manufacturer. If you are going to build this system yourself (which I bet money that you are), you will fail.
I am looking at your #3 Config test results again. You are using a MacBook Pro with Thunderbolt 1. You should be jumping up and down that you are getting 312 MB/sec.
This is my advice to you. Stop this nonsense. Buy a system from SOME company that does this for a living. They will help you – all of them will – Small Tree, Facilis, EditShare, DDP, GB Labs, ProMax, Studio Network Solutions, etc. Your job is to provide your facility with a WORKING SYSTEM that everyone can successfully edit with. And buy a normal switch like a Netgear XS series, not the Cisco that you intend to use, so it’s easy to trouble shoot.
No one wants to see your iPerf results. You need to do tests in real world situations against a RAID array.
Even if you were to achieve 1250 MB/sec per system (which you will never do with 10GbE), 3 computers running at that speed would saturate the bandwidth of a 16 bay SATA RAID array, and your system would choke. I am sure that you are not running an all SSD array for your final system.With all of that said, your system is running fine, except for #3, and that’s thunderbolt 1 in an old MacBook Pro laptop, so no one cares.
Bob Zelin
Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com -
Hi Ian –
the QNAP is wonderful. I have installed QNAP TVS-EC2480U-SAS-RP-R2 and TVS-EC1680U-SAS-RP-R2 in countless installations including Disney Broadcast Operations in Orlando Florida.
The TVS-ECxx80U series is expandable to EIGHT additional expansion chassis, using the free built in 12G SAS expander in the main chassis. To connect an expander to the QNAP (like the REXP-1620U) you simply plug in the one short cable from the SAS expansion port in the main unit, to the expander chassis. You can either keep the expander as a separate static volume (as I usually recommend), or you can create a storage pool, and have the additional chassis become part of a large storage pool.The TVS-xx80U series comes for free with a dual port 10GbE adaptor that connects to a 10G switch (like a Netgear XS series) with an SFP+ Twinax cable or SFP+ transceivers and a LC-LC fiber cable. I always order an additional 10Gbase-T card (the QNAP LAN-10G2T-X550) which is $399 retail, so I can use a cheap Cat 6 cable to connect to the Netgear switch. And yes, this is a dual port card, so I could link aggregate the 2 ports for even greater total bandwidth.
The TVS-xx80U series states on the QNAP website that it can do a maximum bandwidth of 3800 MB/sec, but this is with SSD drives only, and I have ZERO clients that are willing to spend the money for that. I use HGST NAS drives or WD RED NAS drives in these systems, with wonderful performance. Using 10TB 7200 RPM SATA drives at RAID 6, a
QNAP TVS-EC1680U will have 160 TB and after RAID 6, it will be 140 TB. NOW, in the future, you could add EIGHT MORE expander chassis on this this system. That would give you 1.26 Pedabytes of storage !!!!Using a thunderbolt to 10G adaptor, you will see 600 – 800 MB/sec bandwidth on a typical Apple product when communicating with the QNAP. (Using specifically a Promise SankLink2 or Sonnet Twin 10G). With Thunderbolt 3 for the new iMac’s or Mac Book Pros, the speeds when you use the new Promise SanLink3 are interesting. You see 350 – 400 MB/sec WRITE, and 1100 MB/sec read. I have no idea of why the write is slower than the read performance. These tests are done with both AJA System Test and Blackmagic Disk Speed Test.
The Studio Network Solutions EVO is wonderful, and they give you share browser, which is an integrated asset management system for free when you buy the EVO. QNAP does not do this, however, you can simply purchase Axle Video for asset management, which is a very widely used asset management program for video system (like Adobe Premiere, etc.).
What QNAP does give you for free is remote access capability. Using QNAP MyQnapCloud or CloudLink, you can remote access the QNAP from anywhere in the world, for freelancers to upload and download files. And with the recent advent of Proxy Workflow for FCP X and Adobe Premiere, this is all very exciting, that you could use Adobe Media Encoder or Edit Ready to create your proxies, put them in a shared freelance folder, your editor in London accesses your QNAP over the internet, and downloads the Proxy media, and edits the entire show. Then he would send you the project list, back into the QNAP shared folder on the web, and you could conform the show.
QNAP also gives you free backup tools, for Real Time Remote Replication to another QNAP at your facility,
or in a remote location, or to sync with a cloud site like Amazon S3 (that’s all built into the QNAP for free).The QNAP is SUPER easy to use. The user interface is similar to the simplicity of a Mac. Want to create a new shared folder ? Click on SHARED FOLDER icon, and click on CREATE. Want to create a new user ? Click on the Users icon, and click create. Want to assign permissions for who has access to these folders ? Click on the Edit Folder Permissions icon, and assign Read Only, Read Write, or Deny Access. You do not have to know anything about Linux to use a QNAP.
Want to plug in a USB drive from the field ? As long as its EX FAT format (not HFS+ or NTFS) the QNAP will read it from the USB port on the front (the Ex Fat license is 4 bucks).
So yes, its dirt cheap, super easy to use, fully expandable, fast enough for 8K editing (and of course 6K and 4K) and
you will have money left in your budget to buy other toys.OH – they have a nice integration with APC and Cyberpower UPS, so if you have a power failure, the QNAP will be notified by the UPS (via a USB cable) and will automatically safely shut down.
Many people wind up with the desktop models (like the TVS-871T, TVS-1282T or TS-1685) because they are REALLY cheap, expandable, all come with free 10G ports, and are fast enough to edit 4K. But yes, if you have the budget for the rack mount models, they are quite spectacular.
Bob Zelin
Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com -
H Emily,
it’s none of my business to respond to a post like this, but I know Shane, and I work for a bunch of reality show companies, so I figured “what the heck – I will make my stupid comments here” –Reality shows typically are notorious for hiring low priced labor to produce, shoot, and edit their shows. (exceptions to this are Bunim Murray in LA). The workflow that Shane has described is accurate. From reading your post for the second time, I believe that you are working for a VERY LOW BUDGET company that is producing a reality show, and “all of a sudden” YOU are personally responsible for doing ALL the work that is typically done by a team of “slave labor” that typically works for free (except for free morning bagels, and maybe lunch). You should not “feel better” after reading Shanes post. “They” found someone that is very qualified, and is willing to work for a low wage, with all kinds of crazy hours, all by yourself, so that they could complete their reality show, and not have to even buy free bagels for an “intern staff”. So YES, you are suffering beyond belief, and it is unfair to you.
Just before I wrote this response, I asked my wife (due to todays insane politically correct climate) “did I sexually abuse you when I first met you” – to which she responded “YES”. So I believe that #1, Shane Ross sexually abused me at some NAB show (I was too drunk to remember) and #2 – yes, you are being overworked and abused in your talent and ability to produce and edit a professional show (because your producers are TOO cheap to buy bagels for free interns (story producers) to log the footage from this show, before you even see it). YOU ARE ABUSED !
Bob Zelin
Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com -
Hi –
I apologize if you feel that I was trying to humiliate you. This was not my intention.
It is my intention to EDUCATE everyone on all these forums about data migration.
There is a fantasy that “I bought the best most reliable system there is”. That “best, most reliable, most expensive” system will be a worthless piece of junk in 5 years, and a joke in 10 years.Example – the new iMac Pro (not yet released) – will be USELESS in 2028. Many people get emotional over this, as they are thinking about spending $5000 – $10,000 for this new (yet unreleased computer). SATA drives will become just like SCSI drives – useless. I had over the years people say “I am not using SATA drives, they are not as reliable as SCSI drives”. Well WHERE are those people now – oh, I know the answer – they are UNEMPLOYED. Your only salvation is your own data migration (from one format to another as they come out), or pay a cloud company to do it for you. Because whatever Amazon, Apple and Google are using now will be in the garbage 5 years from now. It’s just that you pay them for monthly storage, so you don’t think about it.
The stupid idea (as you are now stuck with ) that DLT, AIT, LTO, Laserdisk, Zip Disk, DVD, etc, etc is going to last for the next 30 years is just stupidity. NOTHING IS SAFE. The only thing that is safe is constant backup, and constant data migration. Is this a PAIN IN THE BUTT ? You bet it is, and people make their living doing this stuff.
Sorry, but people can be so blind. We saw this with video tape, going from format to format every few years.
How many people will have 35 mm Film scanners in 2050 (for those that always say “well, film doesn’t suffer these issues”.Bob Zelin
Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com