Andrew Kimery
Forum Replies Created
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[Bill Davis] “Yes. You are.”
Care to elaborate? ‘Cause this
[Bill Davis] “Which leaves only a couple of possibilities. Those that HAD been put under NDA were the source of the early “it’s crap” spin (which is awful to even consider) – OR, as I contend, it was opinions formed largely out of pure ignorance. “
and this
[Bill Davis] ” But I still contend that IF the default defensive position here is over-focused on the the preferences of those 100 folks who got the Apple sneak peak in 2011 (and their subsequently spreading so much IRE simply because it didn’t meet their needs at the time”
make it sound like you are saying the people that got the early look under NDA sowed the seeds of discontent that resulted in stuff going sideways enough that we are still talking about it 5yrs later.
[Oliver Peters] “So what sort of message do those things suggest?
“Right, which comes back to my point that the fireworks that happened when X launched weren’t just about X. There were a number of issues at play and X, and part of how Apple launched it, were the final straws.
[Bill Davis] “To me the message was that the “professional video space” was changing fast. And Apple wanted to get ahead of that.”
Ahead of it or mostly out of it because they saw higher margins, and less demanding customers, elsewhere? 😉
Shared storage and MAMs seem to be more common than five years ago, but Apple doesn’t do low margin hardware and X probably is probably as much of a MAM as they want to deal with. I think it’s the same thing that went down with Shake. Apple just reevaluated and determined they no longer wanted to be as deep down the post production rabbit hole as they had been.
I agree that many (most?) local TV stations aren’t all that local anymore, but look at where programing has increased (and I don’t mean YouTube). There’s the obvious ones like the original programing on services like Amazon and Netflix (I think Netflix said they wanted to release something like 600 hrs of original content this year) and then maybe the less obvious original content generators like the NFL, MLB, WWE and UFC. The NFL is the only one that doesn’t offer an OTT service, but between their cable channel and their website they generate a lot of content. These guys aren’t hiring randoms off Craigslist to work out of their mom’s basement to create this content.
[David Mathis] “I agree with what you are saying. On the other hand FCP X does not include so many features for the build as you go camp. Neither approach is wrong just goes with what works for you.
I prefer to add on as needed and the way Final Cut is built does encourage third party products which is a great thing. I can choose what I need and go from there.”Not all features can be added by third parties though. For example, multicam and a full quality video output had to be added by Apple. So would any advancements to audio mixing that many users seem to ask for. I agree with you about Apple’s ‘leave it up to 3rd parties’ approach as that could encourage more 3rd party development (since they wouldn’t be as worried about their product being made unnecessary by Apple rolling out the same feature in a future version of X). In a previous thread I’d brought of 3D text as an example of Apple adding a new ‘core’ feature (the 3D engine) but leaving it up to third parties to really exploit it. I’ve heard some 3rd parties devs say they wished Apple would open up X a bit more though. I was talking with a dev the other day and they commented on how much is available in Premiere but people are only just starting to tap into it.
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[Bill Davis] “But I still contend that IF the default defensive position here is over-focused on the the preferences of those 100 folks who got the Apple sneak peak in 2011 (and their subsequently spreading so much IRE simply because it didn’t meet their needs at the time “
I think it’s a bold claim to say that the people Apple hand picked to get a private viewing of X (all under heavy NDA I would assume) spread around negativity (out of spite?) and were the cause for reaction to X when it launched. Or am I misunderstanding you?
[Bill Davis] “This thing sucks because it doesn’t work like I’ve been conditioned to work. I’ll always believe that perspective was short-sighted then, and it’s still short sighted today”
I agree though I think you are severely overplaying that sentiment in this situation. Many people had been waiting for years for Apple to give signification upgrade to FCP and when that upgrade launched as very much a work in progress that was the final straw. They needed a viable tool today, not the possibly of a viable tool at some point in the future. It’s just hard for me to discount people by saying “you just fear change” when they might have transitioned from film to linear, from linear to NLE and from one NLE to another (ex. Avid to FCP Legend).
I know you have been bullish on X since day one, but a common theme among many of case studies I’ve read over at FCP.co is that X at launch wasn’t really viable but a year or two or three (depending on the situation) it was and that’s when these people/companies switched and have been happily using it ever since. On the flip side, just casually in 2011 or 2012 I’d talked with a couple of post houses in LA that were on FCP 7 and they were optimistic about X. One of them ultimately went with PPro and the other went with Avid.
But not everyone had that luxury of time. When some people moved to another NLE rather quickly it wasn’t a knee-jerk reaction, it was pulling the trigger on a decision years in the making. Many people were underwhelmed with the meager update that was FCP 7 but, being long time Apple users, they were holding out another yet another 2yrs in hopes that Apple’s next upgrade would deliver the goods (even though both Avid and PPro were racking up new features like mad compared to FCP at the time). Apple showed their hand with X and that was the final piece in the decision making process that was needed. To me that’s not short sighted, that’s just making a business call based on the best available products at the time. If X had launched with more feature parity maybe the decisions would’ve been different. Maybe not.
To your point about people being mad mainly that X didn’t work like 7, at the time of the X launch I was working with around a dozen relatively young (late 20’s-early 30’s) editors that had grown up on FCP, only knew FCP, and almost to a (wo)man they were pissed because they just saw their NLE knowledge get a big, fat expiration date. The older editors I knew (and/or editors that knew multiple NLEs) seemed less likely to share this mindset. I assume because they’d been around this block before. I had used the old Premiere and Avid prior to FCP so when X dropped it was certainly comforting for me to know that I could fall back on my Avid experience to get work.
And of course there are the ‘iMovie Pro’ people and there always will be. I mean, I know people that have dissed FCP for over a decade and I think the only thing that might sway their opinion is Tim Cook gifting them a few million shares of APPL.
[Bill Davis] “As you know better than most, you don’t build a global platform by catering the 100 influencers, or even 50,000 editing pros (if there are even that many “traditional facility editors” out there.) Ron and Katherine and you built this success by BROADENING the discussion beyond any single “elite” class of editor.
And I hope you continue to do that.”
I wouldn’t worry too much about that. I think the ‘elite’ class of editor is probably the least represented class of editor at the COW or any Internet forum for that matter. Between NDAs, the rigors of editing high end films/TVs and having AE’s to do trouble shooting for you I don’t think there’s much reason for them to venture into Internet forums too often. We have conversations about them way more than they have conversations with us. But influencers are called influencers for a reason so of course what they say in an interview or at a panel discussion is going to ripple through all of us ‘little people’ that are ripe for the discussion. 😉
[Oliver Peters] “Maybe it was Apple’s way of gauging what the reaction would be and to internally prepare for the backlash and possibly tweak their own marketing targets.”
You mean do things such as taking over a Supermeet at the last minute? 😉
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[Michael Gissing] “Tim’s been sniffing glue again.”
Tim just wants to sniff some glue
Tim just wants somethin’ to do
All the COWs wanna sniff some glue
All the COWs want somethin’ to do/Ramones
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I like the white cow in a blizzard motif.
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[Bill Davis] “No Andrew, I’m recounting my personal experience at the time.”
Your personal experience of how people felt about X the product which is related to, but not the same thing as, the the launch of X the product. An example of what I mean is if Apple would have either not pulled FCP 7 from store shelves immediately or if they had given users a big heads up that FCP 7 would be pulled from store shelves in a few months then the launch of X would’ve gone smoother even though the product would’ve been exactly the same. Also things like providing the roadmap and the free trial at launch would’ve been beneficial as well.
[Bill Davis] ” in any rational review of the landscape, the “hair on fire” nature of the reaction simply COULD NOT have come from natural internet chatter.”
People, as a whole, aren’t rational, especially when you put them behind the relative anonymity/protection of the Interent. Even looking back at it now I’m not surprised that it went down the way it did given all the pieces that fell into place at the same time (some of which had been brewing for years like the lack of a solid update since 2007, or 2005 if you ask Tim).
[Bill Davis] “potential is kinda MORE shocking. “
Potential doesn’t pay the bills though. For example, when X launched I needed the ability to do things like round trip between my NLE and color grading and audio mixing programs, open already pre-existing FCP projects, capture from and layoff to tape, etc., I didn’t need to download X to know that the launch version didn’t meet my needs. There were features that X launched with like the key wording and auditions that I thought were very cool but some of the features that were missing at launch were show stopping omissions for me at the time so the cool features were a moot point. Many (most?) of the people I talked to felt the same way. My stance on X hasn’t changed since launch though, if I think it’ll meet my needs (which includes being used by facilities I work at/want to work at) I’ll start using it.
I think it goes without saying that if X launched with more features it would have been better received but Apple didn’t think waiting another year was wise and I agree with that. The timing of things had them in a pinch.
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[Tim Wilson] “It was also openly discussed at the Alpha Dogs pre-NAB presentation,”
And here is the link to the videos on Vimeo if anyone wants to take that trip down memory lane (it’s the 2011 NAB Previews).
https://vimeo.com/channels/editorslounge/videos/page:4/sort:date/format:thumbnail
Bill,
In your blog I think you are conflating the product itself and the product launch. -
[Ivan Gao] “Does it create a temporal video file on the disk to store the edited result or just store the edited video stream in the memory?”
I don’t believe it does either by default. When you playback the edited result the computer is playing back directly from the files stored on hard drive(s). Although you can ‘render’ the entire timeline and it will write a new video file to disk, and some NLEs will allow to to do a RAM preview (which writes the data to RAM) but it’s usually not very long (only a matter of seconds) because of the file sizes videos create.
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[Todd Terry] “I personally want nothing for free”
It’s not free though anymore than public roads, public schools, the police and the fire department are free.
Are people going to game the system? Sure. People gamed the old system, they’ll game this system, and they’ll game the next system that comes down the road. I’m less worried about the guy that you described getting the knee surgeries (which after a quick Google search appear to be around $30,000 per knee) than I am about the higher-up that games the system for millions, if not billions of dollars, annually.
My quick 2 cents to this whole thing. I’ve bounced between being freelance and staff with benefits a few times over the last 15yrs and anytime I’ve paid my own way for health insurance it has always gone up (FWIW I’m healthy and beyond checkups I don’t go to the doctor). In the mid 2000’s I had a plan (can’t remember with who) and after a year it went up around 20%. The next year it went up another 20%. I ended up changing providers and started the whole dance again.
In the mid 90’s I broke my arm and went to the ER. They had to knock me out to set the bones (snapped both bones in my forearm) but I was in/out in just a few hours. The medical bill was around $8,000 IIRC (all covered by insurance). In 2000 I was in London and broke two bones in my hand. They had to do surgery (insert 2 metal pins) which meant a two day, one night stay in the hospital. I later had a couple followup visits as well as a couple of physical therapy treatments. Since I was just visiting, as opposed to being a resident, only the x-rays and initial examination in the ER were covered by their public healthcare. Everything else I had to pay out of pocket (eventually I got my insurance to reimburse me). My bill? $1500-$2000 (can’t remember exactly). The Brits even used a more advanced procedure than what was allowed in the US at the time which enabled me to start rehabbing within days instead of weeks.
Every system is flawed, but I’m kinda tired of the US, when compared to other 1st world countries, being ranked near the top in cost but ranked near the bottom in quality of care.
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[Herb Sevush] “It’s called the human condition”
And that’s what Apple, under Jobs, was so masterful at manipulating (which adds to the glaring nature of how rough the X launch went). I mean, with a straight face and sincerity Jobs called the iPad “magical” and the tech community just swooned in response, preorders flooded store.apple.com and people prepared to campout in front of their Apple store. That emotional door swings two ways though.
[Tim Wilson] “I was a lot more of a dick than I meant to be.
Emphatic, yes, but I didn’t think you came off as a dick. Although it seems you wanted to come off at least somewhat like a dick but you dicked it up. 😉
[Tony West] “If everybody had tried it and didn’t like it, that would be one thing. But it didn’t go down like that. “
I agree that it’s not all Apple’s fault, but what you are describing is a given though and is applicable whether you are talking about NLEs, video game consoles, cars or power tools. Companies have to take that into consideration and do their best to mitigate it, and I just don’t think Apple had a very good game plan in place. IMO the sudden takeover of the NAB Supermeet at the last minute was the first sign of trouble/disorganization within Apple. Now that I say that, it was more like the second sign of trouble. The first sign was the super weak update to the ProApps in 2009. Like many people I assumed FCP was coasting because Apple was busy doing a ground up rewrite since FCP was getting long in the tooth. And like many people I expected that ground up rewrite to be FCP 8, not FCP X. Many users had been waiting since 2007 for a meaningful update (Tim would say waiting since 2005 for a meaningful update) and that was just another facet that helped create the perfect storm of explosive conditions for the X launch.
I think that’s what fascinates me about the launch is all the different factors that were in play and if even one of the factors wasn’t present (or at least dramatically reduced) then I think the launch, while still rough, wouldn’t have turned into the event that it did.
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Skimmed the thread and just a drive-by posting (for now). 😉
[Tim Wilson] “Unlike me, you actually work for a living, so I’ll ask you. Is it now easier to find a job in LA with Premiere than X?”
Based just on job postings I’ve seen there is much more work for PPro in LA and NYC than X (FWIW I mainly look in the doc/unscripted sections though scripted in LA is still almost exclusively Avid). FCP Legend seems to have finally dropped off the map and I think most of those places have gone to PPro. Avid is still being used at bigger places, but the mid-sized and smaller places seem to have mainly shifted over to PPro. To be totally honest (and I’m sure I’m going to incur somebody’s wrath with this), I’ve seen more posts for spanish or mandarin speaking editors (for Avid or PPro) than I have for X editors over the past few months.
X job postings seemed to start picking up last fall/winter but I’ve been seeing fewer and fewer of them since then.
[Tim Wilson] “You.
Can.
Buy.
It.
Today.”
[Bill Davis] “I believe Tim’s contention has always been that making sticking with Legacy “smoother” would have been a MUCH worse call.
In that, I tend to agree with him.”
Bill and Tim, you guys are proving my point. 🙂
1. Apple yanked FCP 7 overnight w/o warning from all official retail channels when X launched, and that is one the things that made people mad.
2. After 2-3 months Apple back tracked and whatever copies were sitting in warehouses became available again (though that change couldn’t undo the fact that they pulled it in the first place).
3. To Tim’s point, FCP 7 has been for sale along side X for almost 100% of X’s existence.
4. Has this nearly 100% co-existence negatively impacted the adoption of X? I’m going to say no. What do you guys say?
5. If this nearly 100% co-existence has not negatively impacted the adoption of X then what did Apple gain by yanking FCP 7 overnight w/o warning other than bad PR? If Apple had left FCP 7 available for purchase, the same way Adobe left C6 available for purchase, the launch of X would’ve gone smoother than it did, the adaption of X would not have been hampered, and it would’ve been a win/win for Apple.
[Bill Davis] “Or they were’t pissed AT ALL. A subclass of those with significant video editing expertise limited EXCLUSIVELY to those with iMovie expertise were pissed.”
Or people actually were upset because basic things like importing from DV and being able to play footage in reverse were gone. iMovie ’08 got dinged in reviews and by users because it dropped so many features (most of which were brought back in iMovie ’09). I’ve been a member of MR for a long time and a lot people weren’t happy about how many features that version of iMovie lacked.
Whether or not you agree with my assessment of the how many people were upset though is beside the point though because ultimately it was enough to make Apple react to it. Apple should have learned from the iMovie ’08 release and changed their approach, but they basically did the same thing with the X launch and got the same result (user backlash they then had to quell). Apple finally changed tactics with the Aperture/Photos hand-off and that went much smoother than the iMovie or X hand-offs. Are Aperture users just not as invested in their tools as iMovie or FCP users? Or could it be that users react more positively when they don’t get the rug pulled out from under them?