Andrew Kimery
Forum Replies Created
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I’m reluctant to label one genre as harder than the other because so much can vary on a case by case basis (plus if you are working on large Hollywood productions there is a lot of pressure and stress that doesn’t exist when you aren’t in that white hot spotlight). I’ve heard people say film is a director’s medium, tv is a writer’s medium and documentary is an editor’s medium and I’d agree with that. I think doc/unscripted certainly requires the editor to be more involved in the producing/writing aspect more than in scripted. I’m starting to see more and more editors with producing and/or writing credits on their docs and not just ‘edited by’.
I’ve also only worked on a handful of small scripted projects so I’m probably not the best one to judge both experiences side by side.
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[Scott Witthaus] “Funny thing is, many of these “YouTubers” videos have better production quality than some of the reality TV crap out there. But they are called “YouTubers” and “hobbyists” while the reality TV is on the high-pedestal of “broadcast editor”!
and so it goes….”
You are conflating some things. No one is equating YouTuber w/hobbyist, just that lots of hobbyists are YouTubers. For every Freddie Wong or iJustine or RWJ there are literally millions of other users that are, well, very, very pedestrian. Taken holistically content that makes it to theaters, streaming services, TV/cable, etc. is higher quality than what’s uploaded to YT. Hell, even YouTube keeps trying to shake off it’s lower-budget image with things like the YouTube Channel Initiative (now defunct), YouTube Spaces, YouTube Red, etc.,. It’s just the way it is.
It’s also a reason so many successful YouTubers try and go beyond YouTube. For example, not long ago I was working with a very successful YouTuber on a documentary and I asked why they didn’t make it a web series. I thought the topic of the do would be great for that format, plus they already had a huge online audience to tap into. They said they’d already been there/done that and that they wanted to take on a bigger challenge. It’s was part of a bigger plan at their production company to prove that they could do more than just ‘web videos’. They were setting their sights on bigger budgets, more prestige, and a chance to do projects that wouldn’t do well on YouTube.
I started working in digital/New Media in 2006 and did that full time until 2012. Even though I’ve mixed in some unscripted broadcast/cable shows and indie doc work the majority of my work has been in Digital. And thankfully ‘Digital’ has become a bigger thing because working on it in 2006 certainly didn’t have the same ring to it that it does today. My Digital gigs ran the gambit from bare bones, run-n-gun to working out of giant production trucks and TV studios. But, generally speaking, the expectations (and pressure) have always been higher when I’ve been doing broadcast/cable work. “Don’t worry about it, it’s just for the web” is a phrase I’ve heard over and over again. If you are distributing via regular YouTube, Vimeo, or your own site the deliverables and QC are totally self-determined.
Finally, LOL, trust me, editing reality TV doesn’t get you put on any sort of pedestal. LOL. I’ve been to industry events where the presumption by the panelists was that everyone working in unscripted TV really wanted to work in scripted TV since scripted TV was ‘real’ editing and unscripted was just unadulterated crap. Of course this was years ago before there was a resurgence in quality unscripted TV (and the later re-branding of unscripted into sub genres like reality TV, docu-series, docu-follow, docu-drama, etc.,). These days I think theres a little more respect for unscripted projects, though scripted (both TV and film) is still seen as the pinnacle of the art/craft (in some ways I agree, in others I don’t).
But I digress.
TL;DR, There’s stratification in our industry, just like there’s stratification in every industry, and I don’t know why people try to pretend there isn’t. It’s like saying there’s no difference at all in the overall level of talent, monetization, prestige, etc., between the Arena Football League, the CFL and the NFL.
And so it goes…
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[Bill Davis] “Curious as to why folks in those “not for profit” operations decided to part with $300-400 bucks when there are plenty of capable cheap or free alternatives -“
Maybe the free/cheaper alternatives don’t meet their needs? If you head over to DVXUser or DVinfo (or even the digital video forum on Macrumors) you’ll see a lot of hobbyists/enthusiasts that are more than willing to pay for the tools they want to use even though their projects aren’t intended to be money makers. The free version of Resolve is obviously a compelling target, but if someone’s more comfortable working with X then they’ll probably think the cost of entry is worth it. Not long ago this same category of people were paying about the same amount for Final Cut Express or even more for FCP Legend.
[Bill Davis] “it would probably be equally interesting to determine the percentage of the Adobe Subscribers base who pay their monthly $XX and never edit a frame of video for money.”
Isn’t there an old joke about PPro being a ‘free’ NLE that came bundled with AE? ????
Joking aside, if someone prefers Adobe’s tools then they are probably okay paying the annual fee. I mean, I think I’m slated to spend more annually on my rock climbing hobby than I do on CC, and rock climbing certainly doesn’t earn me any money.
[Robin S. Kurz] “Are THEY “editors” or do the live up to everyone’s so distinct idea of “PRO”?”
If they are anything like the YouTubers I’ve worked with they wouldn’t call themselves editors even though they might edit their own videos. To that point, I haven’t see either one use the title of “editor” to label themselves. I think it’s normal to draw distinctions between being able to do something, being able to get paid to do something, and being able to specialize in something. For example, on many of my smaller projects I not only edit I also do sound design, gfx, mixing, grading, etc., but I don’t label myself a sound designer or graphic artist. I’m an editor and I can certainly do those other things if need be, but speaking in generalities, I think it would be pretty egotistical of me to assume I can do them as quickly and effectively as someone that’s been doing it all day, every day for years and years.
[Robin S. Kurz] “Either way I’d say anyone actually putting more relevance and value into what feature A, B or C Hollywood edited on and none into these “just some YT vloggers” is making a huge mistake in terms of relevance for the global market in the long term and might want to rethink his use of such a high horse. ????”
Global market in terms of what? And do you think that FCP.co is up on a high horse as well with their focus on films and TV shows?
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[Bill Davis] “40-50 cameras (of all types) covering the race course.
Sports?
Sorta?
Kinda?But nothing like what I grew up thinking of as a “sports show” tho.”
Was the producer cutting a show/segment about drone racing or an actual race? I’ve only seen a little bit of drone racing, but it seems like auto racing and/or air racing could provide established workflow templates to build upon.
[Oliver Peters] “”offline”/creative editing, VFX-GFX, “online”/finishing, audio post, and various deliverables.”
If we get macro enough the workflow is the same for everything though. ???? The devil is in the details and that’s what separates ‘Can this tool do this job?’ from ‘What is an adequate tool for this job?’ from ‘What is the best tool for the job?’.
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[Brian Seegmiller] “I find it interesting that this forum, “Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates” gets Premiere stories posted that has nothing to do with FCP X.”
Why? Debating the merits of FCP X’s ‘new’ approach compared to the ‘traditional’ approach generally shared by other NLEs is the only reason this forum exists. Can’t really have a debate about tools if you are only allowed to talk about a single tool.
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[Gabriel Spaulding] “”This sort of thing has cropped up before, and it has always been due to human error.” —HAL 9000″
LOL, perfect quote (even more so since I just finished watching HBO’s Westworld).
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[Gabriel Spaulding] “I wonder why so many Avid and Premiere users are so obsessed with the development of FCP X if it does not affect them? Six years in it feels like Apple could add every possible feature and it still won’t sway anyone’s opinion of FCP X. This isn’t a problem with FCP X, it’s an emotional problem. Too many people can’t let go, and don’t want to share the same playground.”
I don’t think it has anything to do with Avid or Premiere users, it’s just humanity. Mac vs PC, Chevy vs Ford, Gibson vs Fender, Snap-on vs Craftsman, IndyCar vs F1, Xbox vs Playstation, Scripted vs Reality, etc.,.
Somewhere in the FCP X lore it gained traction that X has been beaten on like no other NLE (or possible even no other product) before it and I just don’t see it. X is going through the same growing pains that everything else goes through. I mean, six years into the life of FCP Legend and it was still seen in major markets as an NLE for people that can’t afford a ‘real’ NLE even though the feature set was mature and it wasn’t fighting the uphill battle of ‘reinventing editing’. I think product years 8 and 9 were probably the strongest in terms of momentum in the industry (of course all that momentum came to a screeching halt when Apple hit the reset button in a massive way with X).
But even with the levels of acceptance Legend made there were still a lot of people that saw it as a lesser program. It’s just the way things go. In the NLE space I think Premiere has probably has the longest slog, and I regularly run into people that have sworn off Avid because Avid did something to piss them of in 2005. Speaking of Avid, I doubt linear and film editors welcomed Avid with open, loving arms when it first rolled off the line in ’89.
Maybe the reason some X users perceive more heat is because many former FCP Legend users moved to Avid and/or PPro so hangouts (both real and virtual) that used to be FCP-centric changed to having a more mixed clientele. This change caused the inherently insular situation of FCP users hanging out with FCP users, Avid users hanging out with Avid users, etc., to be disrupted. For a time X users were ‘homeless’ until the community grew and congealed enough to find/create their own X-centric hangouts.
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[Gabriel Spaulding] “I’ve seen FCP X users poke at Premiere among fellow FCP X users —many of whom have actually used or currently also use Premiere— but I’ve never seen a FCP X user jump on an Adobe forum to assault Premiere users.”
I agree that when it comes to software specific help forums it’s generally a more homogeneous group, but if you go to places that are less software specific (some place that has a general ‘filmmaking’ forum, for example) you get a lot more butting of heads because it’s a more heterogeneous environment. And in the case of social media, I follow a lot of different people on Twitter and I belong to the major FB groups for X, PPro, Avid and Resolve so there are lot of different users (and their opinions) that flow through my social feeds.
[Gabriel Spaulding] “I see that as a great example of Apple doing what neither Adobe or Avid has done —re-thinking their approach and updating the infrastructure of the entire program. “
Adobe went back to square one with Premiere Pro and Avid has changed a lot with MC (AMA, 3rd party I/O support, etc.,.). Avid also demo’d a collaborative, cloud-based NLE at NAB in 2010, and they had a very well reviewed iOS NLE (Avid Studio for iPad) in 2011/2012 that let you transfer projects to the desktop version of Avid Studio (not MC).
To you point though, I think Apple can be more flexible than Adobe or Avid because Apple doesn’t depend on post/production/creative customers to keep the lights on.
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[Gabriel Spaulding] ” is just absurd. “
I agree that it’s absurd, but post-purchase rationalization is everywhere. I mean, I don’t think I can go more than a few days w/o seeing an X supporter bashing another NLE on Twitter or FB. Or a PPro supporter bashing another NLE on Twitter or FB. Or an Avid MC supporter bashing another NLE on Twitter or FB. Oh, the bane of being NLE agnostic, I get to experience the best, and worst, of each NLE (and their communities). ????
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[Michael Gissing] “So in the past when I criticised Apple for not building in a lot of what I considered basic functionality, the cry went out that plugins are best but when Apple finally builds functionality in it is best?”
It’s the ‘Jobs Doctrine’, crap on everything that you aren’t doing, then praise it once you start doing it. 😉