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[Andrew Kimery] “That leads to the feeling that Apple is disinterested in X but, disinterested or not, does it matter in the end as long as someone (first or third party) provides the functionality you are looking for at a reasonable price?
“Sure. Every piece of interchange developed by third party depends on one thing, Fcpxml. That one document allows a ton of possibility. With literally the same document I can go to audio, color, vfx, graphics, media management and organization, as well as other nle’s and systems via differing interchange formats. In a relatively short time Apple built a brand new language to let other people extend capability to however they see fit. Apple, who ‘doesn’t care about professional workflows or what professionals need’ seems to care somewhat about the outside ecosystem and wants interested developers to interact with FCPX in some fashion.
As far as the hardware, certainly Apple is pushing it. We’ve talked about thin clients here, Bob Z started a thread about it, and as easy it would be for Apple to assemble the parts needed for a $25,000 MacPro, I just don’t see the point. The technology is going to change too fast to keep up, and as well as and for as long as Apple supports their machines, getting in to an endless matrix of user configurable parts wouldn’t make for easy reparability or customer service.
I enjoy that I can access the same speed and quality of devices via my laptop or my desktop via Thunderbolt. It has given me more capability in more places, including being able to bring a desktop machine with me if necessary in a light roll away case.
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[Oliver Peters] “They do allow the floating HUDs, but somehow that seems to be a loophole that developers have smartly capitalized on. I suspect Apple is not really wild about the aesthetics of that.”
It’s not a “loophole” Oliver, it’s a documented feature for FxPlug UI elements.
FCP X does not provide hooks in the host app to actual HUD’s (Motion does) but that could change.
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~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~\”It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools.\”~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~\”The function you just attempted is not yet implemented\”~ -
[Jeremy Garchow] ” Apple to assemble the parts needed for a $25,000 MacPro, I just don’t see the point. The technology is going to change too fast to keep up, and as well as and for as long as Apple supports their machines, getting in to an endless matrix of user configurable parts wouldn’t make for easy reparability or customer service. “
Apple, king of desktop revolution, has never played in the realm of highest of high end computers and I don’t expect to start now. What would be nice though is if the Mac Pro wasn’t full of tech that was cutting edge in 2012 and if it could decisively outperform the computer line that is one tier below it. I don’t think that’s too much to ask of what’s supposed to be a flagship machine. A refresh, or at least a price drop, every 12 months or so would be nice too since the tech is changing fast and the ability to upgrade the newer Macs is much less than what you can do with a cMP.
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[Andrew Kimery] “A refresh, or at least a price drop, every 12 months or so would be nice too since the tech is changing fast and the ability to upgrade the newer Macs is much less than what you can do with a cMP.”
If I bought a new MacPro and the price dropped in 12 months, why would I ever buy a new MacPro when I could get a year old one for cheaper?
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[Jeremy Garchow] “If I bought a new MacPro and the price dropped in 12 months, why would I ever buy a new MacPro when I could get a year old one for cheaper?”
With that line of thinking you’d never buy a computer (or a car, or a TV or an video game system, or a smart phone, etc.,) because it will always be cheaper/faster/better ‘tomorrow’. My GF made fun of me for this because for like 5yrs I was aways ‘just about to buy’ an iPod but never did because I knew if I waited I’d get more bang for my buck. I never did buy an iPod, but the boss got everyone in the office got iPods for Christmas one year so I still managed to end up with one. Work computers are different though because I use them to generate income (as opposed to an iPod which was just frivolous).
People pull the trigger when the system gets features they need/want now. Or it’s already been years since their last upgrade and they can’t keep waiting ‘another year’ indefinitely. And Macs hold their resale value very well so even those trying to score a used one won’t save a ton of money. It’s only been recently that Apple’s desktops and laptops have drifted away from a 12 month-ish update cycle. The iDevices get update every year and Apple doesn’t seem to have much of a problem selling those.
Why would I pay top dollar for a 2013 nMP in mid-2016? A refresh is imminent or the product line is dead, either way it’s still top dollar for old tech. Let’s say Apple has moved the nMP to a three year product cycle. Why would anyone buy one in the ‘refresh year’ when it’s never seen a price drop? Now if there had been price drops then that keeps the value proposition of an aging system alive. Do I pay less now for older hardware or do I wait and pay more for upgraded hardware (this is of course assuming the next nMP won’t come with a price hike). Or do I save a fair amount of money and just get a 5K iMac. The price/performance on the 2013 nMP right now just doesn’t make sense to me.
Of course give the choice I’d much rather have annual refreshes at the same price point than annual price drops on aging hardware.
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[Andrew Kimery] “With that line of thinking you’d never buy a computer (or a car, or a TV or an video game system, or a smart phone, etc.,) because it will always be cheaper/faster/better ‘tomorrow’.”
If I knew that MacPro prices would drop in a year, I’d just wait. My point is that Apple isn’t going to drop the prices, not by a significant amount anyway, in 12 months time.
[Andrew Kimery] “The iDevices get update every year and Apple doesn’t seem to have much of a problem selling those.”
Except now, you have to subscribe to your phone payment (or outlay a bunch of cash if you want to own it outright) and in return you get a new phone whenever the new model comes out. Is that’s what’s going to happen to computer hardware?
[Andrew Kimery] “Why would I pay top dollar for a 2013 nMP in mid-2016? A refresh is imminent or the product line is dead, either way it’s still top dollar for old tech. Let’s say Apple has moved the nMP to a three year product cycle. Why would anyone buy one in the ‘refresh year’ when it’s never seen a price drop? Now if there had been price drops then that keeps the value proposition of an aging system alive. Do I pay less now for older hardware or do I wait and pay more for upgraded hardware (this is of course assuming the next nMP won’t come with a price hike). Or do I save a fair amount of money and just get a 5K iMac. The price/performance on the 2013 nMP right now just doesn’t make sense to me.”
The product line is not dead. They would pull the MacPro if it was dead. Remember when Apple kept the cheesegrater on sale despite it being old technology?
How much would Apple have to drop the price in order to make it relevant? There was a lot of this discussion with the Tubes first came out, about waiting to buy. We didn’t wait, and our performance improved, and now, three years later, the computers have more than paid for themselves. My guess is that the next one will be Thunderbolt 3, and Apple is waiting for the parts to make that viable. Remember before the Tube was announced, people though that a MacPro with Thunderbolt was impossible because there was going to be no easy way to separate the data and display operations? I do, and then Apple made dual GPUs standard, got rid of a bunch of clunky display interfaces, standardized around USB3 and Thunderbolt and made using any external devices between any Mac computer a possibility.
Have you regularly used new Macs? Can you honestly say the old cheesegrater is still a better computer?
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My wild guess as to why the Mac Pro hasn’t been updated yet, aside from the fact that Moore’s law is slowing rapidly:
– AMD just recently released chips that would be a significant upgrade to the D700s.
– If the nMP was announced in June of 2013 with then previous gen CPUs, it’s most likely the fact they were designing the new form factor when those chips were brand new. There will probably be less RnD to work out for an updated model so my guess is it will have the current gen CPUs.
– Most folks who preordered didn’t get their hands on them until April 2014, just over two years ago.
– Thunderbolt 3 isn’t out yet.
– Apple is hurt that people call it the “Trash Can”. They are waiting to release an updated model until people start calling it the “Little Black Keg” dammit!
Calling it the ‘trash can’ is why we can’t have nice things.
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[Jeremy Garchow] “If I knew that MacPro prices would drop in a year, I’d just wait. My point is that Apple isn’t going to drop the prices, not by a significant amount anyway, in 12 months time. “
But how many years would you wait? 1? 2? 3? But then a new model comes out and the waiting cycle starts all over again. You couldn’t wait indefinitely because at some point you have to buy it. That’s my point. Better/faster/cheaper is always around the corner yet people (especially when it’s business related) have to buy at some point.
I guess where I’m sorta confused is that many products work on 12-18 month product cycles (cars, consumer electronics, camping gear, etc.,) and many people still buy the current model year, as opposed to waiting for a ‘year end clearance sale’, yet you make it sound like it’s an unsustainable business model.
And it’s exactly what how Apple worked until recently. 12 month-ish product cycles which meant improvements and/or price drops. It used to be that they’d roll out a new the top end unit w/a spec bump and everything else would get bumped down a notch. Ex. Good, Better, Best 2013 MP and then 2014 comes and and we get a new Best which makes the old Best the new Better, the old Better the new Good and the old Good goes away (and usually ends up in the refurb section for a limited time at a decent discount).
[Jeremy Garchow] “Except now, you have to subscribe to your phone payment (or outlay a bunch of cash if you want to own it outright) and in return you get a new phone whenever the new model comes out. Is that’s what’s going to happen to computer hardware?”
Isn’t laying out cash up front to buy your computer outright always what we’ve done with computer hardware (assuming you didn’t rent/lease it from a VAR)? Yet Apple’s recent lag time on laptop and desktop hardware cycles is unusual for them and unheard of in the industry. Hell, in the G4/G5 days it was a 6mo cycle (big upgrades coming every 12 months and a speed bump halfway in between). Not that I expect that to return, but you can’t tell me better CPUs and GPUs haven’t come out between now and June 2013 when the nMP was announced. Maybe the R&D costs are too high compared to the cMPs, which used more standardized parts, and that’s why Apple hasn’t given us a speed bumped nMP?
FWIW I think cell phones have largely been decoupled from cellphone plans as all the major carriers have stopped going with the traditional 2yr contract with subsidized phone. The options now seem to be leasing (which lets you trade it it after 12 months for a new model) or buying outright (either all up front or on a zero interested, 24mo installment plan).
[Jeremy Garchow] “Have you regularly used new Macs? Can you honestly say the old cheesegrater is still a better computer?”
Yes (mid range, D500 models) and I expected my socks to be blown off since I usually work on a 2009 MP (upgraded) but my overall impression was ‘meh’. I didn’t sit there with a stopwatch, but working mainly with camera native HD (multicam) and exporting to H.264 and ProRes the nMP didn’t feel appreciable faster like I assumed it would (using PPro FWIW).
On the flip side I was very surprised at how well the 5K iMac performed (it had been a long time since I last used an iMac and it was much more ‘consumer’ in terms of performance back then).
In mid-2016 a 2009 cMP with non-stock upgrades like SSDs, USB 3, modern GPUs, etc., is still a viable machine for many people. I doubt the 2013 nMP will age as well when 2020 rolls around. In terms of value and longevity I think the cMP is certainly the better computer (and maybe that’s a bottom line problem Apple is trying to correct?). If was looking to buy something new today (wait, I am looking to buy something new today ;)) I’d have a hard time picking anything comfortably. I already have the ’09 cMP and I might just keep buffing it for a little while longer. The 5K iMac seems like the safest bet, but going with a single, mobile GPU just doesn’t sit right with me from a longevity standpoint. The nMP (as I’ve lamented many times) just isn’t a good value at this time (especially with ThB 3 and a new generation of GPUs hopefully finding their way into a new, nMP later this year).
I just think it’s disappointing that the in mid-2016 the nMP, an iMac and a cMP can even been mentioned in the same breath. Yes, Apple made dual GPUs standard yet an iMac with a mobile GPU, according to the barefeats tests I’ve seen, usually beats the D300 model, usually ties the D500 model and only typically loses to the D700 (but even the losing is close enough that it makes you think long and hard and price vs performance).
[Darren Roark] “My wild guess as to why the Mac Pro hasn’t been updated yet, aside from the fact that Moore’s law is slowing rapidly: “
I agree that Apple is probably waiting for milestone-type changes but there are still ways they could have buffed the nMP as opposed to keeping it stagnant. I mean, I can certainly buy a GPU today that’s better than the GPU I bought in 2013. That’s the main point of this being a bur under my saddle. If Apple made a user upgradeable machine I would be fine with longer durations between upgrades because I wouldn’t be solely dependent on Apple to when it came to improvements. If I am solely dependent on Apple when it comes to improvements then I’m not going to be happy with long durations between upgrades (especially if the price the same for years on end). As users, especially users that are in the market for Apple’s flag ship computer, I think we deserve better. Who knows, maybe with ThB 3 the external GPU performance will be at a ‘good enough’ point that going that route will meet the needs of majority of users that don’t need bleeding edge speed.
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[Andrew Kimery] “And it’s exactly what how Apple worked until recently. 12 month-ish product cycles which meant improvements and/or price drops.”
Look at it this way. Apple is looking out for your best interests. They know you can’t upgrade the nMP much, so they want you to get as many years out of it as possible 🙂
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
[Andrew Kimery] “If Apple made a user upgradeable machine I would be fine with longer durations between upgrades because I wouldn’t be solely dependent on Apple to when it came to improvements. “
This is the grey area, the GPUs, RAM, and SSD are considered ‘user serviceable’ but as of yet there are no 3rd party GPUs or Apple upgrades available.
I’m hoping they offer upgrade kits as they have in the past for the cgMP™. That will say a lot if that happens or not.
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