Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera

[Chris Wiggles]

I also forgot this link with a large variety of original files in very short clips obviously due to size, that you can download which are shot at 60p (and 50p) as well:

https://hdcam.web-pda.info/

Regards,
-Chris

[Gary Adcock]

[Chris Wiggles] “However, your claim that consumer cameras simply inherently cannot support 1080p60 is bizarre, particularly given that such cameras do exist and are readily purchasable. “

as I stated here:
https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/8/1095041
if you do not understand the nature of what the signal was engineered to do, how can you expect to understand the whether what you are working with is correct or not?

“I don’t disagree with your criticisms of this camera that you made above in terms of its performance issues, but keep in mind it is simply a ~$1K consumer camcorder. “

Yes I understand that and even given such a low price point, I still tested the camera using industry standard tools for testing and analysis.
https://www.tek.com/Measurement/App_Notes/indexes/video_audio/registration/?lc=EN&PRODUCT=&returnUrl=ct=TI&cs=pri&ci=2210&lc=EN

You, by your own admission, tell us that you are new to the video world, I on the other hand am not.

I have never said that this camera did not take acceptable images- I stated that my testing showed that the camera was not outputting what SMPTE decides is a proper 60p signal, and that the signal i tested on an early camera model was a 60i signal that was line doubled- a common occurrence with the earlier HDMI consumer specifications, not the later 1.3a and 1.4 HDMI specs.

I did not trust my eyes, apples antiquated quicktime player or even FCP to handle that footage, just like I doctor I ran tests understanding what the baseline is, using tools designed to provide critical analysis of baseband video.

Since I have worked with virtually all of the current professional camera systems that can properly produce a recording at 1080 60p, my knowledge and client base force me to be more critical than others. I do not rely on ANY camera mfg’s specs for anything more than an assumption that it is correct, but I also know that specs written for a camera that sells for $1000 are not exactly written or even proofed by engineers, but more likely by some marketing intern.

I test a great many cameras and lenses, this camera did not meet my criteria in producing a proper signal that could be recorded according to the 1080p60 specifications for the work that I do, and as I told the last poster here- I am glad that this camera works for you and your needs, it is not up to my standards and expectations for what 1080p60 is supposed to be.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

https://blogs.creativecow.net/24640

[Chris Wiggles]

[gary adcock] ”
as I stated here:
https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/8/1095041
if you do not understand the nature of what the signal was engineered to do, how can you expect to understand the whether what you are working with is correct or not?”

Sir:

Now you are simply attacking my credibility, and entirely ignoring the camera specifications, framegrabs, and example clips that I referenced for you and for anyone else to test and examine entirely on their own without my (or your) credibility at all relevant.

I fully understand the nature of 1080p60 video, and have been intimately involved with video for many years. Your accusations here as to my lack of understanding of video formats is grossly misplaced. And anyway, it is irrelevant to the discussion of directly testable fact.

Yes I understand that and even given such a low price point, I still tested the camera using industry standard tools for testing and analysis.

By what methods? Using what tools? This was asked of you before. You continue to reiterate ‘SDI’-based SMPTE standards which are of no relevance to anything here. What that has anything to say about whether the video is native 1080p60 or scaled 1080p60 from some other quality of source is entirely beyond me. You could have entirely compliant HD-SDI or 3G signals at 1080p60 that derived previously from 480i60, or anything. What does that have to do with anything at all?

You did not describe your workflow. At this point, I’m not certain you even understood how to operate the camera and extract 1080p60 content, as it is not straightforward with this camera. You have stated nothing about how you ascertained that the camera is somehow doing something other than what is stated explicitly in specifications which have been challenged by no video professionals anywhere except for yourself.

I am rightly skeptical of many claims by manufacturers just as you are, but I have absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe (and have seen absolutely no evidence at all to support) a claim that Panasonic is lying about this camera’s capabilities which have been quite openly tested by many individuals around the world. I linked you to just a couple examples, feel free to web-search on your own because there are many more.

You, by your own admission, tell us that you are new to the video world, I on the other hand am not.

Sir, this is not a fair statement at all, nor accurate. You immediately questioned my credibility because of my new registration at this forum, which is a tired tactic. I explained, accurately, that I have been deeply involved with video for many years, but am new to the production side of things, hence I am new to this particular forum in my desire to learn new aspects of video and learn to create my own content. I read Poynton’s tome many years ago(among others) and have been re-reading it ever since. Nobody knows everything there is to know about video, and I find your arrogance and secrecy here unpleasant and unfortunate. Everyone here is here to learn and to share knowledge. Parroting misinformed facts about something as inocuous as a camera’s objective recording format and capabilities is unproductive behavior.

I have never said that this camera did not take acceptable images- I stated that my testing showed that the camera was not outputting what SMPTE decides is a proper 60p signal, and that the signal i tested on an early camera model was a 60i signal that was line doubled- a common occurrence with the earlier HDMI consumer specifications, not the later 1.3a and 1.4 HDMI specs.

By what method did you ascertain this? Did you record in 1080p60 mode? Did you know how to accomplish this with this camera? Were you able to extract the 1080p60 content natively and not a re-process from inside the camera of a 1080i60 output? All of these things are entirely reasonable mistakes that anyone could make with this particular camera, and which are not obviously apparent. I still have no idea by what method you claim to have ascertained that the content was 1080i60, or with what tools. Your earlier statements about SMPTE standards with reference HD-SDI and 3G seem to imply that maybe you fed these signals to a compatible scope or other comparable device perhaps? But the number of steps to attain such an output format requires a number of steps far removed from the camera itself that are fraught with peril and susceptibility to user error. It is entirely unclear what it is that you did, since you refuse to elucidate that.

And yet again you continue to forward the strange claim that somehow early iterations of HDMI did not support 1080i60, or otherwise there was some common difficulty of 1080i60 in/out on HDMI devices which would require the camera not only to scale to 1080p60, but to record that scaled version and waste twice the storage capacity on the camera for this unheard of invented limitation of the HDMI interface which is not accurate. I would be happy to direct you to the HDMI specification, but it appears likely you would ignore that reference as well. I’m sure HDMI is wrong about their own specification, just as Panasonic is wrong about their own camera…

I did not trust my eyes, apples antiquated quicktime player or even FCP to handle that footage, just like I doctor I ran tests understanding what the baseline is, using tools designed to provide critical analysis of baseband video.

Since I have worked with virtually all of the current professional camera systems that can properly produce a recording at 1080 60p, my knowledge and client base force me to be more critical than others. I do not rely on ANY camera mfg’s specs for anything more than an assumption that it is correct, but I also know that specs written for a camera that sells for $1000 are not exactly written or even proofed by engineers, but more likely by some marketing intern.

I test a great many cameras and lenses, this camera did not meet my criteria in producing a proper signal that could be recorded according to the 1080p60 specifications for the work that I do, and as I told the last poster here- I am glad that this camera works for you and your needs, it is not up to my standards and expectations for what 1080p60 is supposed to be.

Well sir, quite frankly, given your complete inability to answer what you tested, how, and with what, I cannot say that I trust you at all given the fact that the web is filled with 1080p60 videos shot with this very camera, and I have shot small amounts of 1080p60 with it myself.

If you tell me that the sky is bright pink, and continue to reiterate that you performed rigorous tests using tools designed for critical analysis but can’t say what those tools were, how you did such a test, and what you found, then your claims are hardly worthy of any deference. I hope you understand that the scientific process involves some rigor and openness, and if you performed some unknown test that according to you clearly contradicts what has been claimed openly by Panasonic (unchallenged by no one save for yourself), and what has been tested by scores of individuals, then that is a fairly serious result. Such a finding is worthy of examination, and is very important for others to know who may intend to deploy this camera because of its 1080p60 capability. If that capability is a lie, then that should be known, and I encourage you to go forward with that claim. But not simply based on your word about some mysterious test using unknown equipment, with unknown persons who may or may not have had any idea what they were doing, using an entirely unknown workflow with zero openness or disclosure for review by one’s peers.

Regards,
-Chris

[Gary Adcock]

[Chris Wiggles] “Now you are simply attacking my credibility,”

Like you are not attacking my credibility?
By your own admission you are a newbie, both here on the Cow and as a video user?

“entirely ignoring the camera specifications, framegrabs, and example clips that I referenced for you and for anyone else to test and examine entirely on their own without my (or your) credibility at all relevant.”

Correct- why would I take an unknown entity such as a first time poster and admitted newbie and trust my livelyhood on your word?
Better yet why would I trust anyone else’s random files posted on the internet?
Where are YOUR files?
Where are YOUR Test results?

“By what method did you ascertain this? Did you record in 1080p60 mode? Did you know how to accomplish this with this camera?”

You obviously ignored my link to the Tektronix signal testing link I posted last time.

I test all signal path processing using industry standard diagnostic and analytic HARDWARE from both Leader Instruments (LV 5800, LV 5750 and a Phabix signal tester on loan) and various Tektronix units based on SMPTE specs for baseband video. I also used Aja’s Hi53G and HA53G converters to handle the HDMI x HDSDI conversion process, so that I was able to pass the baseband video signal out of the camera, just like I would with any other camera being tested for signal analysis.

“I have shot small amounts of 1080p60 with it myself.”

ROTFLMAO
so a camera newbie also? https://magazine.creativecow.net/article/camera-and-lens-roundup

Your naiveté regarding how and why real cameras do what they do does little belay the fact that I am happy that this camera worked for you.

This camera did not pass what I required of it, but please be my guest to continue to call me a liar when you have naught to show, nor much if experience with this camera or for that matter any other camera that might actually be able to shoot 1080p60 as the specification is defined and I will assume that the over $1000 per day rental on the professional level cameras that shoot 60p are beyond your budget.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

https://blogs.creativecow.net/24640

[Chris Wiggles]

[gary adcock] ”
Like you are not attacking my credibility?
By your own admission you are a newbie, both here on the Cow and as a video user?”

Sir,

This is silly. I asked you for a specific workflow and specific methodology that you used to test this camera, and what you found.

You have yet to provide anything but a link to generic testing methods, and throw around some gear to which you have access.

You accuse me of being a newbie, a newcomer to video, or otherwise not understanding anything. Sir, you do not know me, my experience or my background. I have been involved with digital video and imaging for years. Your accusatory tone is a weak argumentative tactic, and in any case I am entirely uninterested in engaging in such ad-hominem arguments. I simply wish to clarify for the original poster of this thread the facts surrounding a specific capability of this camera.

Correct- why would I take an unknown entity such as a first time poster and admitted newbie and trust my livelyhood on your word?
Better yet why would I trust anyone else’s random files posted on the internet?
Where are YOUR files?
Where are YOUR Test results?

That’s why I linked you to several examples from multiple sources, and suggest you research on your own. This eliminates entirely whatever questions you may have of my credibility, which are anyway entirely misplaced.

You obviously ignored my link to the Tektronix signal testing link I posted last time.

That is absolutely correct. That explains absolutely nothing about what YOU tested, and how YOU tested it. We can play the generic google link game, or you can simply answer a straightforward question of WHAT and HOW you ascertained that Panasonic (and everyone else) is lying about this camera.

I test all signal path processing using industry standard diagnostic and analytic HARDWARE from both Leader Instruments (LV 5800, LV 5750 and a Phabix signal tester on loan) and various Tektronix units based on SMPTE specs for baseband video. I also used Aja’s Hi53G and HA53G converters to handle the HDMI x HDSDI conversion process, so that I was able to pass the baseband video signal out of the camera, just like I would with any other camera being tested for signal analysis.

You’re getting slightly warmer. Care to explain exactly what you did? Care to describe the exact chain, and what you looked at specifically, and how you even got the camera to shoot in 1080p60 mode and play back in that mode?

ROTFLMAO
so a camera newbie also? https://magazine.creativecow.net/article/camera-and-lens-roundup

Sir, I do not see the Panasonic TM700 in that article at all. Not relevant. I also don’t see any camera testing occurring here. I see an industry professional at a trade show sharing informational statements from manufacturers in a summary article of new products.

Ironic that you would forward manufacturer information in a trusted way in this article, yet here you accuse Panasonic of lying about a camera without being able to provide an iota of evidence.

Your naiveté regarding how and why real cameras do what they do does little belay the fact that I am happy that this camera worked for you.

Sir, I have made absolutely no statements whatever about your so-called “real” cameras. How you reached this conclusion is beyond me. I do not appreciate the continued ad-hominem distraction.

This camera did not pass what I required of it, but please be my guest to continue to call me a liar when you have naught to show, nor much if experience with this camera or for that matter any other camera that might actually be able to shoot 1080p60 as the specification is defined and I will assume that the over $1000 per day rental on the professional level cameras that shoot 60p are beyond your budget.

And a nice swipe at another’s presumed economic status as an indicator of their trustworthiness, to top it all off.

All I’ve really done is question how you ascertained that this camera doesn’t do what it says it does. It’s an entirely legitimate question. There are MANY products that don’t do what they claim, and professionals ascertain this via testing and examination and measurement.

You can’t even tell me what you tested, let alone how you tested it or what you found.

Instead, your “proof” that this camera does not shoot 1080p60 despite many references to the contrary essentially amounts to:
1) I am new to this forum
2) I am a newbie to video
3) I don’t understand ‘what the signal was engineered to do’ whatever that means
4) I’m poor
5) that you’ve worked with lots of other cameras, therefore that means you understand this one

I’m sorry sir, but that simply doesn’t get off the ground as being any kind of scientific evidence with any rigor at all. I’ve encountered many silly things in this industry over the years, but the “you don’t know what you’re talking about because you’re poor” is a new one. Kudos.

Why don’t you spend half as much time just addressing the substance of the question rather than attacking me personally, an individual with whom you have no experience at all and who you do not know.

I mean, no reader can even ascertain what exactly your claim IS! I can’t even tell if you think it’s really 1080i60, or line doubled 1080i60 to 1080p60, or scaled 1080i60, or 1080p30 as PsF at ‘i60.’

Unless you wish to substantiate your claim with legitimate evidence rather than unrelated generalities, misinformed silliness about HDMI, and ad-hominem attacks, I will not pursue this any further. Other readers are free to read and will draw their own conclusions from your behavior, their own research, and the multiple links already posted.

I hope you learn to utilize a more collegial attitude and an intellectually honest willingness to provide open access and explanations to your testing methods in the future for your peers. Otherwise you foster distrust, negativity, and unproductive airs of secretive and inaccessible ‘expertise.’

I wish you a better day on the morrow.

Regards,
Chris

[Bob Beekman]

I really enjoyed your firm discussion on the shooting format of the Panasonic TM700-HS700 line. Could it be that you both are right?. The Panasonics do record in 60p (and here in Holland in 50p). Could it be that the camera recodes the signal to 50i before outputting through the HDMI port?
After transferring the files to my Mac, I do see 50 different frames in a second.

[Gary Adcock]

[Bob Beekman] “I really enjoyed your firm discussion on the shooting format of the Panasonic TM700-HS700 line. Could it be that you both are right?. The”

Hey bob,

You are correct, neither of the previous posters noted that I was trying to use the camera while recording to an external device and that was the reason all I got was interlace on output -and yes I do know that HDMI can support 60p- but the camera only delivers 60p as a file-NOT as video coming out of the camera.

Much like the GoPro Camera it can record internally at 60p- but the video output is something different.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Chicago, IL

https://blogs.creativecow.net/24640

[Bob Beekman]

Hi Gary,
Thanks for letting me know.
Regards,
Bob

[Corey Gemme]

So after all this my head is spinning!

So is the verdict that the Panasonic tm700 does do 6op?

Am I correct that I can turn 60i into 30p if I want?

[Chris Wiggles]

[Corey Gemme] ” So after all this my head is spinning!

So is the verdict that the Panasonic tm700 does do 6op?

Am I correct that I can turn 60i into 30p if I want?”

Yes on both counts.

Note that turning 60i into 30p is in this instance simply deinterlacing with whatever tools you have at your disposal, with varying quality to match. This is different than filming at native 30p of course, which the tm700 does not support. You can record at 60p and then drop frames to 30p if you want which would be largely(but not totally) the same as filming at 30p.

Regards,
Chris